TRP 352: The Trust Recession: How to Grow Your Practice with Trust-Based Selling with Ari Galper

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by legal dealmaker, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:25] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love. Thank you for joining me on the show. If you're a professional involved in business development, meaning you're a practitioner, but you have to go out and earn business and earn trust from client prospects and continue to grow your practice, this particular episode is going to help you.

[00:00:43] When I started this show, right around COVID, I had some time on my hands. I said, let me put on a show. I would interview other speakers that I knew, and I was fortunate enough to connect with our guest who we have on the show today. He was on the show way back during COVID. His name is Ari Galper. Ari is a leading expert in the field of trust. In fact, he is probably one of the most recognized global authorities on trust-based selling and business development for those who are involved in trust-based selling.

[00:01:13] Earning trust from clients and client prospects. Ari has authored seven best-selling books, and he's a thought leader featured in CEO magazine, Fast Company, and Forbes, and others. And in fact, if you're a subscriber to The Rainmaking Magazine, you can read about nine or ten articles that he's written that he's published on our sister publication.

[00:01:33] Ari shares with you what you can do today to earn trust from your client prospects. He talks about the trust recession and how you can avoid that. Make sure you check out the resources that he shares with us in the show notes. As always, this show is sponsored by SurePoint Legal Insights, turning legal intelligence into opportunity. This show is sponsored by The Rainmaking Magazine, with over 40 authors and contributors sharing the best ideas in client development.

[00:02:02] Visit The Rainmaking Magazine. It's absolutely free. Also, if you are a transactional partner for law firms and want ideas that can help you to maximize your deal flow, attend our live half-hour webinar events, where I interview a different author or business development coach each month. Visit RainmakingSeminars.com to get on the list. Your info won't be shared with anyone outside of our organization. Thanks for listening to the show. Thanks for your support.

[00:02:30] I know you're going to get some great ideas from my conversation with Ari Galper today. You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and this is Scott Love, and our special guest is Ari Gelber. And today we're talking about the trust recession, how to grow your practice with trust-based selling. Ari, thank you for coming back on the show again. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for having me. Yeah. You were on years and years ago, I think within the first few months when I started the show right after COVID.

[00:02:58] And I read your book, and I remember back then and in your book, you talk about the story that led you to really understand what trust-based selling is. And tell us that story, Ari. What was it that led you to have these realizations about what trust is in the business development process? Sure. I'll tell you what it was about real quickly here.

[00:03:28] So I used to be a sales manager in a software company years ago. We launched the first high-tech dashboards pre-internet for website behaviors, all the data dashboards for companies that understand their traffic on their website. Back then, it was just one of the first ones, companies out the gate with that. We got bought eventually by Google down the road. But unfortunately, I was gone before that time happened. But I was managing 18 people underneath me at the time, and I was a sales manager.

[00:03:59] And one day, I got a lead that called from our website. I picked the phone up, and a gentleman introduced himself. He's a huge company. You recognize the name. They have tons of websites around the world. And he says to me, Ari, we're looking at your technology. It looks really interesting for us. We'd love a demo and a conference call if that's okay. I was like, great. If I close this one sale, it would double the revenue in the business in one transaction. That's how big it was. It was a huge deal. So we agreed to Friday at 4 o'clock in the afternoon for a conference call.

[00:04:28] And so the day finally came. I'm in the conference room with my CEO, a big long conference table. In the middle of the table was the old school speakerphone. It looked like the Star Trek spaceships, if you remember those old days with the dial pad, the mute button, the speakerphone. And so I dialed the number that he gave me, and it was their conference line. Dial tone comes up. I dial. He picks it up. He says, hey, Ari, how's it going? I said, good.

[00:04:54] He says to me, let us share with you who's with us today on our side. I was like, oh, I realized there'd be someone else there. Next thing I hear is, my name is Mike. I'm CEO. I was like, oh, this is good. This is a good person to have on the line. My name is Chris. I'm head of global IT. Even better. My name is Julie. I head of global marketing. Amazing. Everybody on this call is a decision maker. Like if it's going to happen, it's going to happen like today. These are the top head honchos.

[00:05:23] We're going to decide a yes or no. So I introduced myself to everybody, explain what we do. And I had them log into an old school rudimentary kind of webinar tool back then. I showed them live on one of the websites to see a dashboard of their actual live behavior website people going through it. The visitors, the numbers, the traffic and all that. And so we had them log in and I showed them as walking through the screen. Here's how it works. Here's your visitors. Here's the flow through. Here's their conversion rates.

[00:05:52] And I started hearing this noise on the phone call. Like, wow, this is great. This is amazing. I can't believe we can see all this. They start asking me all kinds of questions. How does it work? How do we install it? How does technology work? There was so much. It was like a love fest on the phone, Scott. You know, they had the questions. I had the answers. I'm sending myself. There's zero resistance. This is how every initial business development call should go.

[00:06:23] And so an hour is going by. They're asking me questions. I'm answering questions. I'm doing everything I'm taught to do by the book. Relationship building, adding value, asking questions, displaying my expertise in a nice way. I even got the high five on my shoulder from my boss. He's like, hey, nice job. I'm like, yeah. You know, sis, it was an amazing call. It was like the dream call. An hour comes to a close. My contact says to me, Ari, this is fantastic.

[00:06:52] We love this. Give us a call a couple weeks. Follow up with us. And we'll move this thing forward. I said to myself, thank you, God. Oh, my God. I was so happy. I said my goodbyes. I took my hand and arm to reach for the speakerphone to hit the off button. As I'm sending my arm to hit the off button, by complete accident, I hit the mute button instead of the off button. They were right next to each other. And a small click happened. And they thought I hung up the phone.

[00:07:22] And that split second, a voice inside of me said, Ari, go to the dark side. Be a fly on the wall. Go where no one's ever gone before in the world of business development. So I pulled my thumb back for a couple seconds. They started talking amongst themselves. And they didn't know you were still there. No. They didn't know. They thought you hung up. They thought you hung up. It happened so fast, Scott. I didn't even. It just happened. They started talking. I was like, oh. And they started talking. They got left the call. And they started talking. And I listened.

[00:07:52] And I was expecting to hear the things they just told me. Like, hey, this is great. Let's call them next week. Let's get into this. Let's call them back. Whatever. I was waiting to hear something relatively positive. But let me share with you and your audience what I heard verbatim, word for word. And it's why we're here today. Here's what they said. They said, we're not going to go with him. Keep using him for more information.

[00:08:17] And make sure we shop someplace else cheaper. Knife and heart twist. I was in a state of shock. I snapped out of it. I hit the off button. And I looked at the wall. And I said to myself, what did I do wrong? I was competent. I was professional. I asked questions. I built a relationship. I did everything you're supposed to do that you're taught to do in the world of business development.

[00:08:46] And here they felt comfortable lying to me and not telling me the truth. And so that's the huge pivot that happened to me. And I realized I had a flash. And I said to myself, the whole world of selling and business development has become dysfunctional. It's a layered relationship that is so complex and so oftentimes untruthful. Why is there a game happening?

[00:09:09] And I said this to launch my own approach to how to view growing your business and practice by not having to sell at all and focusing on a truth-based process rather than a selling process. And that launched my whole trust-based approach two decades ago. Well, that's good. That's good that happened to you, Ari. Otherwise, right, you'd be selling telecom or whatever. But so let me ask you this.

[00:09:35] If you could go back in time, knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently in that scenario? People always ask me that question. And I say to them, what I would have done is I never would have had that call because I would have got the truth with the first contact I had in the first meeting to find out what the agenda was, what their story was, what they were looking at. And really unpacked the truth of what they were doing, which was shopping me to use me for someone else.

[00:10:04] I would have gotten that out earlier with building trust with that person. But I didn't realize that because back then I believed my goal was to get that sales process moving forward, not to get the truth up front. Well, how about that? I think that kind of reframes everything because those people listening, they're business developers or they're practitioners that have to develop business. And they might want to get that opportunity. But I think you're right. If we're going to lose out, let's lose out early, not later. Let's save some time.

[00:10:31] What happens is we get someone like that on a conversation and we feel like they're a fit. There's this drug system that happens in our body called hopium. You know, the hopium drug, you kind of go, oh, oh, this, this, this, this. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You got a hopium drug and then you're on this high. Then they want to think about it. They're not ready yet. Then you kind of drop them. You detox. That's what we go through a lot. Something I've learned from you after reading your book.

[00:11:00] And by the way, we're going to put that book in the show notes here because it's a life changing book for me and many people that I know. But I've actually quoted you before. And I've spoken at business development conferences already. Was not being someone who chases the language of trust, which you taught me what I use all the time because I'm recruiting sophisticated people. I'm selling my services to sophisticated firms. I'm doing law firm merger deals between one firm and another.

[00:11:27] I'm dealing with people who have been taught to be distrusting, guarded and skeptical, earning their trust and saying things like, if this is a priority for you, then I suggest we go forward. Or let's do this. Instead of chasing them, I'm here to follow up. It's like you have to make a decision. What should we do about this? And let's just either go forward or not.

[00:11:52] And so I think when you remove that hope for the deal and instead of I'm qualifying people to find out if I can help them and if I can, then are they the right type of client for me instead of chasing and selling and all that? What do you think about all that, Ari? That's the whole shift and pivot. You're right.

[00:12:15] It's a shift to a whole new mindset where you let go of the end goal and you're so present with them, they feel the sense that you care about them. You're all about their issue and problem. You're not there to make that sale. When you have that mindset shift along with what we'll talk about today, the whole process and languaging around that, then you have mastered the art of instant trust building in your business. Yeah, because I think that there are some deals that just aren't meant to happen with you involved.

[00:12:43] And I have candidates I talk to all the time. I talked to actually somebody today. I said, I don't think you should move. I think you should stay. From what you told me, I think it might be problematic if you do make a move and it's a wrong firm. And so, and I'm in the business of where I'm paid to tell people it's greeners on the other side of the fence somewhere else.

[00:13:04] But I think that when I find people where I really do think they need to move and I really believe that I will tell them, I said, my recommendation is just take a look, have a meeting, keep it a half hour. Worst case is it's another friend that you've made, but then you'll know. Anyway, so let's kind of get into it. And I wanted to talk about things that affect everybody, not just what I do. And so you talk about trust-based selling. How would you define that, Ari? I would define that with a metaphor.

[00:13:35] The metaphor that we use is a doctor-patient mental construct where you're the doctor and they're the patient. You're not the attorney. You're not the consultant. You're the doctor. You're placing a hat on your head, right? I'll give you an example. So what's the process that goes to your doctor? Step one is you call to schedule an appointment, right? Then you look at your calendar and you add it in your calendar, but you add an extra 15 minutes on each side in case it's school traffic or, or it's busy or whatever.

[00:14:03] So you don't want to, because you don't want to be late. Then you show up at the doctor's office, right? And you sit down in your chair. You sit in the chair and you wait. And you wait, man. Did you invoice the doctor for your time? Oh, no, no, no. That's not how it works. Then they call your name. You say, it's about time. You walk in the doctor's office there. You close the door behind you. You sit in the chair. You sit in the chair and he says to you, where does it hurt? He doesn't say, hey, let's have a cup of coffee first. I love your shoes. Hey, nice to meet you.

[00:14:33] I'll tell you about me. Let's say if we're fit. No rapport building. And if we're fit, then we'll kind of go from there. Let me discuss to you who my patients are. I've got a lot of patients. We have a lot of case studies, too. They don't do any rapport building at all. They have, hopefully, bedside manner and nurturing and warmth. And they say to you, where does it hurt? You say, my shoulder hurts. I think maybe a football game. I may have gotten injured. He says, let me take a look. Oh, it's a bit sore on there. It looks a bit inflamed. Let's get you an X-ray and MRI to see what's going on. Report comes back.

[00:15:02] Here's the results of the report. Turns out you have a blood clot in your right calf causing your left shoulder to inflame. You're like, what? Oh, my God. I can't believe it. That's exactly the source of your symptom. You're an amazing clarity. Then he writes your prescription and tells you what the plan is to fix it. You thank the doctor. You walk over to one more place before you go to your car. You go to the front desk. And what do you do? You pay.

[00:15:30] You pay the doctor not for solving your problem. That's the pharmacist's job. He gives the medicine out. The doctor provides the clarity on the problem, not the solution. Now, I'm dramatic here about that process, but I'm doing a purpose to explain that a lot of professional services experts unknowingly have a doctor's hat on and a pharmacist's hat on all at once. They're stacked up.

[00:15:56] And when they meet someone and they say, here's my problem, they instantly go into solution mode and say, yep, I can help you with that. Been here to do 25 years. Done 100 of these things. Absolutely, you're in the right place. And they skip the whole trust building stuff in between that. And that commoditizes them. Then they get shopped. And that's the problem that most professionals don't understand because they have what I call an expert syndrome.

[00:16:21] That syndrome is their need to prove to the other person they can solve their problem. And that's this piece we'll talk about today is the trust in between both places. Right. So tell me more about that, Ari. Right. Yes. So there is a space with someone where they're judging you, not on your competence in your first conversation. They're judging you on their ability for you to trust them and then to trust you. They're doing that emotionally, not intellectually. They don't know who you are personally.

[00:16:50] They know you're an attorney. They know you're a consultant. They know you're an accountant. But they're not questioning your competency because they can't judge your efficacy until after they're a client, not before. Right. So your need to prove to them that you're competent is you selling yourself unknowingly to them. And when you're trying to sell your competence to the people, they view it as not trust building, but your need to make them a client.

[00:17:17] And what they'll say to you after the first meeting is, oh, it's been so helpful. I'd like to think about it and I'll get back to you. Or give me a call next week. No, send me a proposal and we'll consider it. And off they go to shop someplace else. That's what I call the trust recession, where the market right now is so educated. They are viewing you as a shopping process, as a commodity. One attorney, I guess another attorney, to see who they want to choose.

[00:17:45] Because they're really trying to figure out who can they trust, not who's cheaper. Right, right. This is really interesting, Ari, because I think people that are listening to this, they've had these types of scenarios. What do you think they should do different to really circumvent or bypass that trust recession and really get to that trust? Is it the doctor-patient type metaphor that you mentioned? Is there anything else that they should do to really get to that place where they can accelerate that trust?

[00:18:14] Yes, we have a whole process for this called the one-call-sale model, where it's not a signature-assigned deal. I'm talking about trust in one meeting. And I'll give you an example of it right now. There's a structure to it. There's languaging to it and a process to it. Sure. It has to be alert. You know, it actually is a skill you have to learn. Unfortunately, you have to go back to, quote, school to learn this. But it's a skill. It's called trust-building skills. Hello, we need that in the world of AI, right? So let me give you an example. So let's say you have a first later opportunity. You meet them on Zoom or Teams, okay?

[00:18:44] Referral from whatever. They show up on Zoom. You show up on Zoom. First thing you say with our approach is this. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well. That's it for T-chat. And that's it? No report building. Hey, how'd you hear about me? Hey, great to have you. Let me tell you about me. Let me tell you about you. Let's see if we're... No, zero. Right? Your doctor, you're the patient. Doctor, patient. Yeah. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well. Next question you ask is...

[00:19:12] This is less disgusting we have to go down the iceberg. Next question is, if you wouldn't mind, take a step back for a moment. Walk me through the big picture of your situation and what your concerns are related to your issues. And we'll go from there. Would that be okay with you? Take your fingers like this over your mouth like a doctor or sit back in a chair and go like this. Now, let's train you not to do what? Yeah. And listen. Don't talk. That's the hardest part of this, Scott. Because we love to engage.

[00:19:41] We want to get into it. Create rapport. Show them we can connect. We've been wired and trained to move them forward. Create energy. We think our job is to kind of just create that connection. No. Your job is to create the space for them to start talking and downloading on you at hello. Not for you to engage them. They don't want to know about you. Nothing personally. They want their problem solved. They're not looking for a new friend. Okay? So I'll say it again. Exactly. If you wouldn't mind, take a step back for a second. Walk me through your background and situation.

[00:20:11] And after your concerns you have related to your legal questions, we'll go from there. Would that be okay with you? Now, that space tells them. Go ahead. Something I've noticed that whenever I'm selling to leaders of organizations, I believe that these are people that have 20 people every day trying to chase after them to sell them something. So their walls are up. And they've got this limited filter. And I used to think that, oh, it's relationship selling. You need to earn a relationship.

[00:20:39] And I'm like, you earn the right to build a relationship once they know you can solve their problem. Once they know that you can solve their problem, then you've earned the right at that point to build the relationship. But for them, it's all about just get to the point. Get to the bottom line. Let me ask for clarity on that. You build a relationship with someone after they're a client, not before they're a client. Pre-sale, you're the doctor. Post-sale, you're the pharmacist. Stop being both in between.

[00:21:10] That's the problem. That's why you're being shopped and you're chasing opportunities. You're losing them in the conversion process. So let me keep going down the process here. So you ask that question. Yeah, let me go. Tell us more about the model. Yeah. So they start downloading on you. They tell you everything going on. As you listen to them, your instinct will be to try and solve the problem because you heard it over and over in the past. I'm going to ask your listeners, do not attempt to solve the problem here. You listen only. Stay present.

[00:21:37] Then when they're done talking, just summarize the core issues. What I'm hearing from you is your core concerns are X, Y, and Z. Is that correct? And they go, exactly. He's listening to me. The next question you ask is this one. How long has it been a concern for you for? Don't forget this. After every question, sit back, keep creating space. Otherwise, you're going to tell. You're trying to move them forward. Next question.

[00:22:03] What have you done so far on your own to attempt to resolve this? The middle layer is called COI, cost of inaction. Not ROI, but COI. What's the impact of the problem? What's it costing you? What's the risk right now in your situation by not solving it? You have to help them build a business case for the problem itself and the impact of it because the last question will be this one. Is this a priority for you?

[00:22:31] To finally address once and for all to resolve this and get the top of your plate. And I'm okay either way. This is great. I love that. I'm okay either way. Because what's that saying? I think that's the way you do it. What you're saying with that, what I'm saying, Scott, is I'm trying to say, look, this is your problem, not mine. I'm not going to own it, my friend. You've got to own it. I'm not going to take my backpack and kind of tell you what to do. I want you to step up as an adult and I want you to say to yourself,

[00:23:00] I want to fix this now. If not, I'm not going to chase you. I'm a doctor. You're the patient. There's no clear and present danger. I cannot help you, my friend. Right. That's what's called not selling yourself at all. It's the doctor telling the truth about the MRI report, about the problem he's got in his leg. But he's got to own to fix it. You can't help go to his house every day and make him walk to get better. So when you get that commitment up front, you say, look, is this a priority for you,

[00:23:29] Mike for you to address once and for all? The guy goes, yes, it is. Then he's in. That next step is called onboarding. Well, you onboard them on that first meeting to a next step in your process. So what you do next is you lay out and show them what I call a roadmap, a visual process from left to right of what your process is to solve the problem. Not your services, not your fees. Right. Right. So you see most attorneys, most advisors, what they do is they do a discovery call for a first meeting.

[00:23:58] They ask all the fact finding questions. When did it happen? When did it occur? Right. Now, the problem with that is if you ask somebody fact finding questions, they don't trust you yet. All they're going to give you is a minute amount of information to make you happy, but not the truth. So the first call is always a trust call. And the next call is a discovery call. And you show them the roadmap of your process and they buy the visual roadmap that you're showing them because it's tangible. And then they onboard with you to the next step to a paid step.

[00:24:28] That's a process that we teach our consulting clients. Thank you for sharing this. Can we go over these? So you talk about, tell me about your situation. You take a step back, have them summarize the core issue. How long has that been a concern? What have you done so far? That's the cost of inaction. Is this a priority for you? And then you say somewhere in there, whatever you do, I'm totally fine with. That's something I tell people all the time. You need to do what's in your best interest. You know, it's if you, you know, I can't take it away.

[00:24:59] I've had the outcome. It's your problem, not mine. And I think, I think, I think you have to be that way. And, you know, the other side is you need to have a funnel so that you can be that way. And, and when you are that way, people want to come to you because they know that you're the one that's really going to get it done. You're going to put their interest ahead of your own. And then let me go back here. Then you say, this is the roadmap. And is that right? Or is that an accurate summary of what you mentioned? The idea is you say, once he says yes, it's a priority.

[00:25:29] Then you say, may I walk you through my roadmap process for how I go about addressing your concerns. Would that be okay with you, Mike? You're always asking permission on every step. Don't jump in and say, let me show you. Do not be a salesperson here. Okay. You got to stay calm and centered and breathe. Create the space to allow them to move forward rather than you pulling them forward. So you say, may I walk you through our roadmap process for how we go about addressing your concerns?

[00:25:57] Guy says, of course, yes, because you're giving them zero so far. You haven't said a word about you the entire time. Don't forget this. You kept your mouth shut. Just ask questions. You're the doctor. Now, then you have your roadmap laid out left to right, stage by stage. You show it to them on share screen. I'll show you an example. I don't have it here. But when I used to go to my physical meetings, I had a tube. I carried it in my arm. And I'd take out of the tube, I'd roll out a laminated large sheet that had my roadmap on it. I'd let it in the table. I'd say, here's our roadmap.

[00:26:26] Here's our process for how we help you. Stage one. Stage two. Stage three. So in your case, that might be a discovery stage one. Stage two, analysis of your information. Stage three might be a plan. You don't have to map it out, your process. Because most consultants or advisors, they have a process, but you know where it is? It's in their head. It's not what the person can see it. So they're not going to believe you. If they can't see it, they don't believe it. Ari, this is great.

[00:26:56] Everything you've shared is spot on and I know will be helpful for everybody listening to you today. As we bring our conversation to a close, if people could take three action steps to really implement these ideas, what are those that you could share with us today? First thing is you have to be willing to realize that you've been conditioned to do a certain behavior your whole career and you're unconsciously doing it.

[00:27:21] And you're doing these things you're hearing right now because no one's ever told you not to do that. This requires a mindset shift to be willing to change and be open. If you're not open-minded, this will not work for you because this is a game changer. Your expectation should be a hundred percent conversion of every lead that comes through a deal that's qualified with this model because it's trust-based. Now, the second shift is what I call trust-based languaging. The change of the words that you use, attorneys consults are very specific on their languaging.

[00:27:51] The words have to change to trust-based languaging. For example, never say to somebody, I'm going to follow up with you. You say the word, you say, I'm going to give you a call so you get any feedback on the last meeting. Replace follow-up with feedback. And the last step is to order my book. It's a free gift to you at thetrustbook.com. Get that book he's talking about, which is called Trust a Split Second. Read that book. And along with that comes some of my time to work with you if you'd like complimentary to help your situation get better.

[00:28:21] That's great, Ari. Ari, we're going to put that link in the show notes along with your contact information for everybody listening today. Thank you so much for being here. And before we go, tell us more about your business. What do you do, what do you have that you'd like our listeners to know about? Yeah. So look, the first step to enter our world is order my book, like I said earlier, thetrustbook.com. Schedule some time on our calendar when you go through that process. Because I need you to experience this live with us and my team.

[00:28:50] See how it feels to speak with someone who does not have an agenda to try and sell anything but wants to actually help you. Notice the languaging. Notice the surprise you get in the mail when you order our book. Watch everything that we do because we have a whole model. We teach consultants and advisors to draw clients in. And our whole concept is to problem solve, not sell programs. We have no program. We just do consulting on each person's problem, solve their problem, and off they go.

[00:29:19] We don't lock people into a process like most people do. We don't operate that way. We operate like a doctor's office. Literally, our whole business model is calendar-based. We have no follow-up process. Sorry. We're not going to chase you. Sorry. We have a front desk and we have doctors in the clinic back here. So, the only way to get into the doctor's office is to schedule an appointment by offering our book. Well, Ari, this is great. Thanks for being on the show again. I really appreciate your wisdom. I know everybody has learned a lot from you. Thank you so much for being here today, Ari.

[00:29:49] Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast. For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com. Thank you.