TRP 345: Lateral Partner Hiring & Integration with Shireen Hilal

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by legal dealmaker, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love. You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love. Thanks for joining me on the show. Today is part of our Sometimes Tuesdays legal-specific shows where we talk about those issues just for law firms.

[00:00:38] Our guest is Shireen Hilal. Shireen is a consultant that works with law firms and other professional services organizations in areas especially related to hiring and integration, also business development, working with firms in key areas that help them thrive. All of her contact information is in the show notes, and in fact, as we go through our conversation, she mentions resources that you'll be able to reach out to her directly and receive, which I think is going to help you.

[00:01:03] Our topic title is Lateral Partner Hiring and Integration. This is a topic that I know is going to be very important to you. We're speaking to the firms and also to those individuals that are thinking about making a move. What are those pitfalls you need to avoid? What are those best practices of making this all work so that there's a good long-term results for everybody?

[00:01:26] This podcast is sponsored by SurePoint Legal Insights, formerly known as Leopard Solutions, turning legal intelligence into opportunity. The show is also sponsored by The Rainmaking Magazine for the intellectually driven and results-focused professional who wants to be the number one professional services provider in their niche. Start your free subscription today. Visit therainmakingmagazine.com to set up your free access and chart your course to greater rainmaking success.

[00:01:55] And you'll notice that many of our guests who have been on the show, those people are also our contributors. We even have other features where you can actually listen to the article being read to you. So if you're busy, but you still want to learn, and you know that you need to continue to grow your domain expertise and knowledge about building a book of business and becoming a rainmaker, check out that free online digital magazine. Thanks for listening. I hope you get some great ideas from my conversation with Shireen today.

[00:02:23] Hey, this is Scott Love with The Rainmaking Podcast. Our special guest today is Shireen Hilal, and we're talking about lateral partner hiring and integration. Shireen, thanks for joining me on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. This is a great topic. Absolutely right. This is one that you just can't stop talking about enough because there's so many variables, so many nuanced issues related to law firms and recruiting partners.

[00:02:45] And just to kind of set this up for everybody listening, we're talking to you, the law firm leader or the staff person in the firm or the partner involved in lateral partner hiring. And we're also talking to that lateral partner. Maybe you've thought about taking meetings with other firms. What are the things that you need to know to mitigate the risk and to maximize you reaching your full potential so that you can sink quickly and deeply and effectively in a new firm and continue to grow. And so let me start with this, Shireen.

[00:03:14] Let's look at some of the common pitfalls that people fall into. The mistakes that firms make, not like I'm saying law firms make mistakes, but the mistakes they make. Let's kind of start with that. What are what have you seen are the top two or three areas where law firms just don't execute well in lateral partner hiring and integration? Good, good way to start.

[00:03:39] I think to use a law firm analogy, if we were thinking of. Up new partner acquisition or a practice group acquisition the same way a law firm would advise a client on an M&A transaction, you would say we need to do diligence. We need to prepare a quality of earnings. We're going to test assumptions and we're going to have an integration plan.

[00:04:05] And so the truth is these are capital allocation decisions for your firm. This is a great way to grow. But without that discipline, a lot can be left to chance. And that's where I think you see a lot of these hires don't last for the long term. Yeah, right. 50 percent. That's what the stat is. Right. And that's an interesting topic. And I like what you said.

[00:04:33] Looking at this as a client opportunity. And what's interesting, and I've mentioned this story before. I remember the first time I ever told an AMLA 100 chairman years and years ago, lateral partner hiring and recruiting is the most effective form of client development. And he looked at me funny because trust starts on day one when that new partner comes in. You've got the book, you've got the revenue, but it's that trust that partners get.

[00:04:57] So I think one shift for those that are doing this is to look at this exercise the way you would with a client and a new client. And I think also in terms of executing and communicating, I see some firms fail in that with lateral partners. They just don't communicate with them. They would never do that to a prospective client. Right. Tell me about that. What have you seen in terms of communication with lateral partners? What are some areas that we can talk about in that regard, Shireen?

[00:05:27] Yeah. So I think that hits on sort of the first issue, which is the vetting process. Right. And the vetting should go both ways. And so it's making sure it's a great fit. And frankly, an LPQ or lateral partner questionnaire is just not going to cut it. It's going to give you some of the basics. It's a good starting point. However, you've got to really get into what is the book of business?

[00:05:57] How portable is it? What's that quality? Not just the headline revenue. That takes real conversation. Um, it's also around things like, well, what's the source of that revenue? Are these personal relationships? Did you get them through your firm's platform? Are they referrals? Is there shared origination? Um, you know, are you currently cross selling? That's going to cut both ways. Right.

[00:06:23] Because on the one hand, somebody who's not cross selling today, don't try to start building in synergies that may not happen, but also be aware where are they already embedded with that client in the firm they're at? Um, and so that relationship may not port over. And then the biggest piece that I think gets left out is the cultural fit and the expectations on day one.

[00:06:48] And so in my work, I've seen everything from, I mean, Scott, you wouldn't believe it. Having a partner call and say, I don't get why nobody's picking up the help desk on a Saturday. And the firm says, what are you talking about? Our help desk doesn't even work on Saturdays.

[00:07:06] Um, you know, in that instance, it was a partner who had moved from an Amlaw 50 firm to a mid-market firm and just didn't realize that the support staff structure was going to be really different. It's asking the questions around, you know, what does it actually take to build that book of business? What do you think your marketing budget's going to need to be? Um, what kind of support do you need? How many associates does it take to work that book?

[00:07:35] Do you have those people? Is this partner bringing them over? Um, what does it really take to be successful? And then some of this just comes down to personality. And so if we take one really easy factor right here, you know, I might be a firm that believes in coloring in the lines. We have process and procedure. We have ways we do things. Um, and we expect you to follow it. You may be a firm on the other end.

[00:08:05] That is, we're super entrepreneurial. Find your path. Ask and you'll get it. Neither of those things are wrong. But if you put somebody that is culturally in one box into the other, it may not work out unless you've had that conversation in depth. Right? This is great. You've given us kind of a framework of things I want to go over and talk about. And let me kind of highlight some of the things that you mentioned that I want to come and talk about. One of them was you talked about a great fit.

[00:08:34] I want to get into what that means. You talked about when you said the LPQ is not going to cut it. That for everybody who doesn't know, LPQ stands for long, painful questionnaire. That is, that is a lateral parting questionnaire where all the data, everything, tell us about the last overdue library book you had. All that stuff is on that form. And that is kind of like a dashboard a law firm looks at to determine where's, where can we expect revenue to come in from, et cetera. We'll talk about that.

[00:09:03] And the one thing you said, and here's your heresy for the day, ladies and gentlemen, you said the LPQ is not going to cut it. And I think you're right. And I think we need to go deeper. I want to talk more about that. So let me go back to this. You said a great fit. Let's define that from both perspectives. And I thought you gave several anecdotes about expectations. Right.

[00:09:25] That I think when we communicate expectations clearly, effectively, honestly, and we align ourselves with other people and we have that happen with us from them as well. That's harmony right there. So, so let's start with a great fit. How would you define that from both perspectives, Shireen? Yeah. I mean, I think it's partly around making sure there's just a meeting of the mind. So whichever side you're, you're sitting on it.

[00:09:56] If I'm the partner, for example, thinking of moving over, do I know how decisions are made at this firm? Do I understand how my comp is going to be calculated? Even if I'm getting, giving, getting a guarantee, eventually that's probably going to sunset. Right. So, so then what? Do I understand the framework that the rest of the firm is under so that I understand the dynamics that are going to be at play here? Do I know what support I'm going to get?

[00:10:23] Have I been clear about what I need to run my practice effectively? Whether that's, you know, I use a ton of marketing time and I need to go to these eight conferences and here's the number of timekeepers. I need to effectively run my matters. And if you're the law firm, you better make sure you know these things too so that you're prepared and you're thinking through.

[00:10:46] Do I have the right support structure that's going to give this partner what they need for that book to come and be accretive here on our platform? And then even more, is this the right economics for us? Because sometimes these top line revenue numbers look really good until you realize that not a lot's hitting the bottom line. So do you also understand the profitability of the book?

[00:11:12] If it's a litigation book, the longevity, what's the current docket? And have you done an expected value analysis on that docket? Or are we assuming everything's going to go to trial and take eight years? Because the truth is, it's probably not. And so I think there's just a lot that's left on the table. And then some of it, unfortunately, a lot of air gets let out of the balloon in the first couple of weeks that a lateral joins a firm.

[00:11:41] And that's just around not having conversations where it comes to who's helping this person port over engagement letters on day one. That should be the most important thing is making sure we've gotten those relationships solid and revenue is going to start flowing. Do you have an awareness of how many invoices are going to be generated? And is your accounting team ready to handle it?

[00:12:07] So it's having these conversations and getting a little more in the weeds. And obviously, that's not going to happen in the first one or two meetings where we're just trying to see whether we like each other enough.

[00:12:19] But if we're getting close to an offer and we think that it's time to extend one, you'd be remiss not to go the step further and make sure, is this the right fit from a financial perspective, the cultural perspective? I think the biggest pitfall I've seen is firms where they have the lateral partner questionnaire submitted and then there's no conversation about what's on the document. Right.

[00:12:49] And I think that's a missed opportunity. And the best thing I've seen is when the firm's chief marketing officer, chief business development officer, yes, two separate things. And a director of integration, director of recruiting and the practice group leader are with the partner or the group leader coming in, going over all that so that everybody knows what's going on. And let me ask you this.

[00:13:11] Let's say, let's kind of look at the definition of success for a partner coming in, being fully integrated and thriving. What do you think that should be? Let's look at Amlaw. Let's call it mid-market Amlaw 100 firms. Okay. What do you think should it be? I mean, I'll tell you this. I think probably two years when they're in and they know everybody on the team and they know they can put out requests and people help eagerly.

[00:13:41] What do you think? Like two years when someone's completely integrated? Is that too long of a period of time? What do you think, Shireen? I think that that's how long it takes to see the results that you're expecting. But I will say, I think that's too long to see, to know whether it's going to work. And so I think what we see is if it's not going to work, I think you see it pretty quickly. In my experience, it's within six months.

[00:14:10] You have a pretty good sense that, yikes, you know, we brought somebody on and they're terrorizing our staff and they're not happy. They're not getting what they need. We should have had these conversations and we didn't. They're already talking about whether, you know, the comp has been done right and we haven't even hit the first year end. So that's sometimes where you really see it.

[00:14:35] I think the positive ones, if you see that you have somebody that is trying to understand the firm and make their way around it, open and learning about the firm and what's available. Obviously, cross-sell is one of these very different. Everyone talks about cross-sell synergy. I mean, candidly, most firms aren't good at cross-sell in the first place.

[00:15:02] So I'm not sure why they think this new lateral partner is going to be any different at doing something that you already probably fail at. But that's also a nice way to see, is this somebody who's understanding how these relationships sort of tick and tie with others? And are they bringing others in? Yeah, that's great. That's good. What do you think candidates, here's a partner, she's looking at moving to another firm. Right.

[00:15:30] And she's filled out the LPQ for that firm. What do you think that partner should do to really assess the opportunity? We see what's on the website. We've heard what the director of recruiting has said, the practice coordinator, even the headhunter involved, the people like me that get involved. What do you think that partner should do to really vet that firm, to make sure that is the right place to go to? What do you think your advice to that person would be, Shireen?

[00:15:55] I would ask, do you have a couple of recently acclimated lateral partners that I can speak to about their experience? And so, you know, you're not going to want to throw them somebody who just got here six weeks ago, but maybe six months to a year. And make sure that there's a real conversation where you understand how this firm does their onboarding. What were the expectations?

[00:16:25] Did it meet? What did you think? What surprised you when you got here that maybe wasn't talked about? And look, if you're a law firm, one of the things I suggest on the integration side is give new partners somebody who is a recently acclimated partner.

[00:16:48] I would say for that it's you want somebody who's probably a good year in because that person still remembers what it was like to come into the firm and not know where anything was. But and so they still have that empathy for that new lateral coming in. But they're far enough along that they're on their feet, hopefully. Right. And so that's a good trick.

[00:17:14] The other one is think about whether there's a strong mid-level or senior associate that you can tag to this person in the first couple weeks to just get them through the bureaucracy of the firm. When it comes to getting through conflicts, sending out the first engagement letter, just getting through the basics of, you know, naming conventions in the file in the file folder.

[00:17:41] Just making sure they have someone who gets how things actually get done at the firm and can help them move through quickly. That's great. That's great advice. What what are some trends that you've seen among law firms right now that may not have existed in the past as it's related to hiring and integration?

[00:18:02] I mean, I think just the fact that we are doing integration with more thought and even hiring internal staff focused on integration is I mean, it's a move in and of itself and says at least firms understand that this is a gap and that it needs to be filled.

[00:18:24] I think where we still need to keep going is where's the practice group leader responsibility here, because as much as somebody in recruiting is going to be great. The reality of how a firm runs in the day to day is there has to be somebody who feels a level of responsibility around making this person successful.

[00:18:49] And in fact, I have one firm that I worked with very large one where they had at year end the sponsoring partner. So whether that's the practice group leader or another that said, I need this hire. We want to bring in this person. Part of their metrics depended on how successful was the integration of this new hire.

[00:19:18] And so those numbers poured it over into their own review. That's interesting. So I don't know if that's a trend yet, but I'm hoping by putting this out there that it becomes more of one. And what I've seen, I've seen the exact same thing you have. I think a big, a big change because I've been in recruiting for 31 years, if you can believe it, before the Internet. I had an AOL email address. I mean, there was no LinkedIn and then got into legal in 09.

[00:19:46] And back then it was still kind of the frontier days of lateral partner recruiting. And I worked right with big firms and saw a lot of mistakes. I was learning too. And I think all of a sudden firms became really good at it. Then COVID hit and the rebound after that they had to get good at it, especially on the associate side. And I think that this is the new normal.

[00:20:08] I think law firms have realized that to grow, and they might not want to be larger than where they're at, but they still have to fill and backfill people because people leave. It's just the way it is. Right. And I think three things I've seen, and I want to get your opinion on this. Number one is having somebody who is solely responsible for integration. Not just recruiting, but solely integration. Number two, getting leaders involved.

[00:20:31] The best placements I've seen are when you have someone, even chairman of firms, chairman emeritus or practice group leader that's really taking an interest in how we're making the sausage here in terms of lateral recruiting. And the third, I think, is also firms that look at the LPQ as a dashboard, but have a conversation about it. Right. You know, they have that meaning.

[00:20:55] Let's discuss it, and let's not just get director, let's get all the other people that have their stakeholders in this person's success. Correct. Those are three things I've seen. Are there any changes in addition to that or any other things that you've seen in recent years, Serene? Other changes. You know, I'd say one of the negative changes is I think we're doing a little too much over Zoom now. And so one thing that I recommend is, look, these are expensive hires.

[00:21:24] Pay if it's a different city or somebody needs to get on a plane, pay for it and have them come in person to have a day of meetings with you. And local or not, I always recommend to take this candidate out for dinner. A lot more comes out when we're off of a 45-minute Zoom, right? And so I think you get to see different sides of people.

[00:21:52] You can only keep your guard up so long, right? And I think you get a better sense of who people are and what matters to them. You're absolutely right. And that cuts both ways. You're absolutely right. I think the best example of what you mentioned just now was when the chairman of a firm flew down to meet my candidate and took the candidate and his spouse out to dinner. And that was just... And that says a lot, right? It does. That says, like, we really want you here.

[00:22:20] And I wish firms would do that more often. I'll say when I was COO at the firm that I was at before starting my consultancy, one thing we used to do was instead of having a lateral partner candidate kind of waiting in the lobby and then coming up through the process, up through the elevator,

[00:22:42] I would go down as COO and wait for them and greet them and bring them up and make sure they knew, you know, I'm a resource to you. If you have any questions during this process, you come to me. It's a different feeling, isn't it? It is. And in the legal world, optics are everything. Totally. And firms can use that to their advantage. What signals are you sending by how you execute?

[00:23:08] I think one thing I've seen, and I wanted to get your input on this, I've seen firms say, yes, we're interested in your candidate. Another week goes by. We're still interested in your candidate. And over and over. And there's no execution. There's no communication. There's no movement. There's no sense. And so the candidate assumes, I think I'm going to take that next call I get about another opportunity. And so I think the optics, like you mentioned, I think that's brilliant, Shereen, the COO going in the lobby to meet the candidate.

[00:23:36] But instead of, you know, sending them up the elevator, I think that means you went out of your way to show how important that person is. And here's something else. And so when I came into legal recruiting before that, I was doing recruiting in a different industry. Before that, I was doing sales. Before that, I was in the Navy. I was on a ship. And then I was a leadership trainer. So I taught leadership.

[00:23:58] And then coming into legal, not having been a lawyer in a different world like you had done and many other people, I didn't have any preconceived ideas. Oh, interesting. I'm seeing, yeah, when I'm seeing how law firms are operating, I'm like, that is messed up. There are some issues. There are some issues here. You better believe it. I know. And so I think seeing consultants like you that come in and solve important problems. And this is what I'll tell people listening.

[00:24:25] And we're going to get all your info about your consulting practice here. But call Shireen if you want to get better at integration and hiring people. Get a third party to help tell your staff and partners what to do. And so I think, anyways, I'm sounding kind of preachy here. But I think that I'm so pleased with how the legal industry has evolved and organizations like now that really take that seriously. Right.

[00:24:52] And really help give the well-intentioned, sophisticated staff people in firms, professionals that, and then the pitfall is partners are known never to execute and never to take action on things. And those firms that build workarounds where, okay, now we've got the chairman or the chairman emeritus, that person's going to make sure execution takes place in the partnership.

[00:25:16] What are some of your final thoughts here in terms of, because I wanted to get to three action steps in a second, like we always talk about. But is there anything else that you haven't shared so far that you really think a law firm leader or chief talent officer or practice group leader should really hear about this important topic? Yeah, I mean, I would say this is the best way to grow your firm. And frankly, it doesn't go well often enough.

[00:25:43] And so putting more rigor around the process is super important. Another just quick hit, if it's an easy takeaway and something anybody can put in their interview process, I think often what we find with these hires too is there's a lot of confirmation bias. And so once you have a practice group leader who said, I'm really excited about bringing Scott in and, you know, all the other partners are like, okay, I mean, he seems fine.

[00:26:12] So we'll say yes. Get somebody from another practice group who doesn't have as much skin in the game to do a cultural fit interview. So just think about how you get a little more data because it's hard. People want to go with the crowd. Right. So if somebody wants to get better at this and really improve in their integration and hiring, what are three action steps you would give them to really make these changes, Shireen?

[00:26:41] Yeah, I think we can break it up into the three real stages. So vetting, dig into that quality of earnings. To your point, it's not just I got the LPQ, but okay, so what now what? Let's look at it. Really model the synergies. So instead of saying things like this left cross sell potential, you know, anonymize those top 10 clients. Take that back to your firm and ask, is there real synergy here?

[00:27:10] And would we be able to service this and get more scientific about personality and fit because it's not a soft factor? Then on comp, that's number two. Make sure you have aligned incentives. Be very thoughtful using guarantees. I would keep it very limited to a time frame. And think about whether you're creating asymmetry with your current partners there. And then integration. Onboarding is not integration.

[00:27:39] Giving someone a password is not integration. Assign the ownership. Build a real plan. And use checkpoints. That's great, Shireen. Well, thank you for being here. And before we go, tell us about your services. What do you do that you'd like our listeners to know about? Thank you. I help law firms with building better growth strategies, standing out in a crowded market, and increasing revenue and profitability. That's great. And we're going to put all of your contact information on the show notes.

[00:28:08] So everybody listening, you'll be able to reach out to Shireen directly that way. Thanks so much for being a guest on our show. I think we've just covered the tip of the iceberg with this. Let's have you back on and continue our conversation talking about these things, Shireen. I'd love to. And FYI, if anyone's interested, I do have a sort of one sheet on here's the good questions that you should ask.

[00:28:31] Sort of those later stage questions around support needs and the typical things that I see go wrong. So if anybody listening is doing this at their firm and would like a copy of that, they can reach out to me and I'm happy to share it. That's terrific. And we'll put your contact info there and they can just reach out to you directly and get that. Thank you. Thank you so much, Shireen. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening to the Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:29:00] For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.