TRP 344: Cross-Selling in Professional Services Firms with Rebecca Hnatowski

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by legal dealmaker, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love. You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love. Thank you for joining me on the show. Today, we're talking about cross-selling in professional services organizations, and our special guest is Rebecca Hnatowski.

[00:00:38] Rebecca is a consultant to law firms, helping them with business development, integration, and other things, especially cross-selling. And that's what we're talking about today. We've put all of Rebecca's contact information on the show notes, so go there and you'll be able to connect with her directly. Before we get to our conversation, a few announcements here. Of course, a nod to our sponsors. Our show is sponsored by SurePoint Legal Insights, formerly known as Leopard Solutions,

[00:01:05] Turning Legal Intelligence into Opportunity. And the show is also sponsored by The Rainmaking Magazine, the largest free publication of content and ideas for rainmakers. Visit therainmakingmagazine.com to set up your free access and chart your course to greater rainmaking success. Also, here's a new program I'm launching for transactional law firm partners. If you're a corporate finance or real estate partner,

[00:01:31] then join me every month where I interview business development coaches for lawyers, where we're talking about the issues that transactional partners face. It's once a month, usually the third week of the month on a Wednesday or a Thursday for a half hour. You can sign up at this link. Just go to rainmakingseminars.com. On Thursday, September 24th, we continue our monthly series of our half hour lunch webinars, where I'm interviewing Jason Levin. He's the author of Relationships to Infinity.

[00:02:01] He's going to talk about leveraging weak and dormant ties in deal-based business development, association involvement, and conference intentions, and value of alumni relations for deal flow. Again, go to rainmakingseminars.com. Thanks for listening, and I hope you get some great ideas from my conversation with Rebecca Hnatowski today. Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rainmaking Podcast, and our special guest today is Rebecca Hnatowski.

[00:02:30] And today we're talking about cross-selling in professional services. Rebecca, thanks for joining me on the show today. Thanks so much, Scott. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, me too. And I'm excited to meet you in person when we met at the Legal Sales and Service Organization conference this past summer. And it's nice that we both live in the greatest city in the world, in Richmond, Virginia. Obviously. Yeah. And by the way, if you live in Washington, don't move here. Please don't drive up our real estate prices. That's right. I know. And so, but I'm in the legal industry. You work in the legal industry.

[00:02:59] And today's show, for everybody listening, it's not legal specific. We're talking about cross-selling professional services, but we're talking within the world that we both know, and it can apply to other worlds, which is cross-selling. And Rebecca, I know in your role as a coaching consultant in the legal industry, I know that your area of specialization in business development, coaching and consulting is cross-selling. So I'm really excited to have you here. And let me start off with this question first.

[00:03:23] What do you think is the biggest pitfall law firms and other professional services organizations have to watch out for in terms of cross-selling? Let's just start with that and see where we go. Okay. As we all know, cross-selling is a buzzword, and it's something that a lot of professional services firms are, you know, embarking on and trying to, you know, grow their business internally because we know that, you know, it's easier to grow existing clients than it is to get new clients.

[00:03:50] And so they're like, let's cross-sell, let's grow, let's do this thing. And that's great. But then I don't think we take the time to understand the work that has to be done internally to socialize those messages such that attorneys were actually going to want to cross-sell. Because it's not just, you know, we're not trying to sell more like little like rubber duckies or something, right?

[00:04:12] Like we're trying to sell more sophisticated legal services to clients who we have really good relationships with. And so our relationship partner for Acme Company needs to really trust their other partner in order for them to believe that they can indeed sell another service and that that partner is going to treat their client with the same level of client service that they do. Right. And it takes work and we'll get into this. But let me ask you this question. Why?

[00:04:42] Why do you think cross-selling should be a priority for law firms and other professional services organizations? What's the big deal with that? Right. Well, I mean, just like I said, it's the easiest way to grow business. It takes such a long time to land a new client. You know, like I think David Ackert says something like 15 touch points right now from start to finish by the time you meet someone at a conference to when you like open a new matter.

[00:05:06] That's a long time and that can take years. So if you've already established credibility with a client, if you're already doing good work for them, it's easy for that client to believe that, oh, if I have another legal need or any other type of need of your different type of professional services firm, you know, this firm should be able to help me. Yeah, right. Right. And so before we start identifying those opportunities, before they really start getting partners together to cross-sell, what do you think needs to be in place internally?

[00:05:35] I think that there needs to have had a conversation with the partnership around why we're doing this and what's expected of them. I think too often, you know, someone says we need to cross-sell, which is obvious. And then it just turns into and we need to do it tomorrow. And no one's talking to the partners about like, what are the mechanics behind how to do this?

[00:06:00] And what do we expect from you? And I mean, saying like, OK, we want everyone's buy-in. And in being here today, we expect that like we are putting the firm first and we are trying to grow our relationships. And in doing so, I need you to be responsive to any requests that one of your fellow partners makes of you on behalf of their client. I need you to be responsive to that request.

[00:06:29] I need you to keep that relationship partner informed as to, you know, what's going to happen in that matter. I think there just has to be a lot of level setting on expectations around trust and responsiveness and communication. Yeah, right, right. And that's something I've seen. I've actually, when I've moved people from one firm to another firm, one of the issues was I'm afraid to bring clients to my firm because I'm afraid my colleagues are going to steal them from me. There just isn't that kind of trust there. How do you think firms can build that trust?

[00:06:59] You mentioned trust has to be there. How do you think law firm leaders can really build that among their partnership? Getting them to talk to each other, getting them out of their office. Yes. And I mean, retreats are really one of the best ways to do that because you're forcing them to get out and spend time with their partners and get to know them. And so I think, especially for people that are in the position of planning retreats, providing opportunities for them to really get to know each other and what they do.

[00:07:27] You know, I think that there's a lot of time spent on maybe reporting and, you know, different things like that or maybe just the social aspect of, you know, playing golf or whatever it is that you're doing. But like getting them to sit down and talk to each other about what it is they do, success stories with their clients so that they all can understand, oh, they really treat their client great. You know, it's like, OK, you treat your client well. I treat my client well. You're somebody that I feel like I can count on.

[00:07:55] Yeah. Tell me tell me a time you've seen firms build trust effectively. What have you seen them do to where the end result is that there is more sharing amongst each other? It's really just making sure conversations are happening, like business development or marketing teams doing everything they can do to get meetings on the calendar, uncovering where there are opportunities for, you know, a like work where synergies can be.

[00:08:24] And just even like hearing that somebody is really into, you know, USC football and it's like, oh, I remember Sam is really interested in USC football. So just making that bridging that gap for them. Like, I think one of the things that we can do the best internally when we're inside firms is identifying when those little things happen, because it's just those little things will grow. Yeah, absolutely right. So let's just say a firm has brought a new group into their firm.

[00:08:53] They've integrated them in and they've done a good job. And there's some trust there. They've met their colleagues. They feel safe with them. They know that they're not going to be embarrassed when they bring their clients in front of them. They know it's a good fit and it's going to work well for everybody. What do we do next? Once you have that trust and buy-in that's built and the partners see this is going to work, I want to do this and I believe that it will work. How do you then go about building what would you call it? A manageable target list? Is that something you'd call it? Yeah, I think that makes sense.

[00:09:23] You know, I think the first thing that a lot of people do is take a look at some of their, you know, top clients in the past, let's say, three years. I think three gives you a good bit of data to look at. From there, I would take a look at which of those practices or which of those clients have at least, you know, one good practice that they're working with.

[00:09:50] I would look at whether or not those people are paying their bills on time. You know, I think a lot of people go immediately for like Fortune 500 companies because they're like, oh, they've got tons of legal needs and that's likely true. But we want to make sure that these people are paying the bills they already have before we start putting them on target lists to grow. That's a good idea. That's a really good idea. Yeah.

[00:10:13] And then, I mean, if you've heard this before, forgive me, but I mean, then doing just like a gap analysis of where there are opportunities, you know, looking at across the firm, you know, your departments. And, you know, if you're looking at the type of company it is, maybe it's like manufacturing and then saying like, OK, well, my other manufacturing clients or clients in the manufacturing industry, they typically have corporate real estate and L&E needs. Well, this manufacturing client is only working with us on real estate.

[00:10:42] So maybe there's opportunity there to look at our like corporate and L&E practices. So being able to like slice and dice it in a way that you're identifying opportunities. Yeah, that's great. I like that. How do you think they can use artificial intelligence in terms of helping to do that research and to develop that client target list? That's super smart. So if you already have, you know, let's say you have a list of like 30 that you're looking at, right?

[00:11:09] Like you don't, is anything with business development at law firms, like you can't have but such a large list because it's just not like tenable for you to be able to execute. You know, I think going into AI and looking up like if you don't know enough about the company, right, doing like an initial poll, like tell me about this company, tell me about what legal needs they typically have. Tell me about who's currently doing work for them, you know, just to kind of get your little, you know, CI toolkit in place.

[00:11:39] And then, you know, from there you'll be able to see, you know, maybe where there are other opportunities that you're not even aware of yet. And there are a lot of, you know, shocker, a lot of AI companies out there that are, you know, making this easier and more bespoke for firms. Like what I'm talking about is just going to like Claude or ChatGBT or whatever your AI platform of choices and asking those questions and coming up with some of those target lists.

[00:12:07] When even like when you're doing your AI searching, maybe being like what other clients are located if you're like footprint specific. So if you're a regional firm, so like what other firms are like, what other clients are companies are like this client in, you know, North Carolina or something like that so that you can maybe start prospecting a little bit while you're doing this research. That's as an aside.

[00:12:30] But there are a lot of, you know, software companies and companies right now looking at taking all of the data that you have at your firm, like your billing collections, CRM and all that kind of thing, and running it through systems to anticipate what the next, you know, project's going to be. And I think that kind of stuff is really interesting. That is interesting. There's a lot going out there. So let me ask you this.

[00:12:58] Let's just kind of put a framework together. Let's say here's a firm. They brought people on board and people really want to do this. And you have a law firm leader. You've got practice group leaders. You've got the director, the chief talent officer that's bringing people in, the chief marketing officer, chief business development officer. Do you expect partners to do this work in terms of doing the list? Or does the staff help them do that? Or do people like you come in and help them, you know, sign in DAs, understand who their clients are and all that stuff?

[00:13:28] I look for opportunities. Tactically, what's the best way to make all this happen, do you think? Rebecca? I mean, I love the fact that this exists, that this dynamic that you just described, that you have a firm that's ready to do this. I think it's a combination of the leaders of the marketing and media departments. They can definitely handle this stuff internally if they have capacity. But also, there's certainly opportunities for people like me to come in.

[00:13:56] And, you know, this can be a pretty significant initiative on top of their day jobs. And so having someone else kind of come in and look at their data independently and without any sort of, you know, internal, you know, concerns. Because I think we all know when we're somewhere for a long time, it could be like, well, I know Sam's not going to like that. So I'm not even going to ask him. Whereas, like, I could come in and, like, I don't know, Sam. And, you know, maybe it'll be just fine.

[00:14:21] But with that in mind, right, it has to be the attorneys who are actually going to make these asks. So, you know, making sure that is clear and that you're able to deliver to those attorneys exactly what it is that we're looking for, while also getting their feedback and getting them, right, excited about what we're doing. Yeah, right, right. Right. Have you seen entities that come together, such as a merger or a large acquisition of another firm?

[00:14:48] And have you seen that that's kind of a stumbling block right there? You've got a large group of new people. Do you think that impacts cross-selling for that firm? Absolutely, because they have to first, like, get their feet under them, right? They have to get used to the systems of that new combined place and just doing their job well. And so I think, you know, if you're looking ahead maybe, like, six months to a year after, you know, that combination happens

[00:15:15] and people are starting to get to know each other a little bit, then you're better off, you know, at that point is when an initiative like cross-selling would, I think, get started. So we've got that list. How do we turn that list into client conversations? Where do we go from here, Rebecca? Well, we have our list, and so we're going to go to each, you know, relationship partner and say, hey, you know, we've done this analysis. We think that there are opportunities here, here, and here. What do you think? You know, where should we prioritize?

[00:15:45] You know, obviously coming in there with already what you think based on data, but you always want to, you know, provide an opportunity for them to lend some insights based on what they know about their relationships at the company. And then getting them to have a conversation with their clients, like a real strategy conversation, not just like a, you know, I think attorneys a lot of times they talk to their clients about the matter that they're working on, which is great. We want them to do that.

[00:16:14] But also we need them to have a conversation with them around like, you know, what's going on at the company, right? Like what are their goals? You know, what are their pitfalls? What are the things that are on the horizon? And I think this time of year is wonderful. We're in September, so we're heading into year end. And so that's such a perfect time to have a conversation about like a little summary of like, we've loved working with you this year. It was great working on this project.

[00:16:43] I, you know, enjoyed XYZ. You know, would you be interested in having a conversation with me around, you know, what's going on with the company, you know, next year? What are you hoping to achieve? You know, et cetera. Like I'd love to be able to support you in any way. Who doesn't want help and support? You know, and so being able to have that conversation, that's when you're going to be able to be like, so who, you know, I know you guys are building a new facility out in, you know, Colorado.

[00:17:10] Are you already all set with, you know, how you're going around doing your permitting there? Because I know that typically there's some environmental, you know, whatever. Like it's helping them prepare for those conversations with the client, with, you know, data that's out there. They are able to mine and getting them ready to have a conversation that they can then come back and put to work. That's great. Good. And so let's just say the activity is starting. All right. We're starting to see more cross-selling activities. Partners are getting together.

[00:17:39] Maybe the director of business development is helping to identify internal opportunities or maybe shared connections or relationships that they didn't even know they had with chief counsel that might be giving them some work, but not all the work in other areas. And it's starting to be strong and you're starting to see results. And then it kind of slows down and then it kind of tapers off. How do you sustain this, Rebecca? What have you seen? What do you think law firm leaders and others and firms can do to really keep it going? Yeah, that's such a good point.

[00:18:08] I feel like often you get a lot of attention at the beginning of a process, at the beginning of initiative, and then maybe like six months down the road, right, it gets a, it tails off. So communicating internally the successes of what's happening consistently is important because attorneys are competitive. So they'll be like, you know, Sam is killing it over here and I haven't done that thing that, you know, Rebecca told me to do. I guess I should do it. It's working out for them.

[00:18:37] Have they ever had a leaderboard or anything like that? For sure. Yes, absolutely. Yes, that kind of stuff works. Isn't it interesting? And this is something I've heard from other business development coaches that it doesn't necessarily matter that it's going to increase their compensation. They're all doing well. But they might be number one against their peer group in terms of growing and number of new matters originated, things like that. So you've actually seen that before. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:19:05] Well, and I was going to say like a long lines of what you were just saying about like how to keep it going, right? Like it might organically be hot for like six months because we're talking about it. We like laid the groundwork and all that stuff. And so then maybe like at the year mark, it's that's when like maybe a competition can start where you're like, here's the baseline. Here's where we are just to kind of keep it keep it going.

[00:19:26] And then it's built into the culture at some point such that like it's a natural it's a natural thing that requires a little bit of, you know, cultivation by the business development team. Right. To keep an eye on things, identify opportunities. But it's more something that's in the zeitgeist without it being so forced. So is this have you seen it as it's an initiative? Guess what, everybody? We are going to start business development and we're going to see how it goes. Or is it something that's just ongoing?

[00:19:55] Do you think if it hasn't been part of a firm's culture or focus areas or an area of execution before, should they say we're going to start this initiative? Do they brand it something like the ABC Law Firm super cross-selling series 2026? Do they make it a theme? What are some creative ways that they've been able to keep that top of mind with their partners? Rebecca. Yeah, that's such an interesting question.

[00:20:23] I have not seen too many straight up themes around this issue. You know, I think that it's something that's typically just maybe potentially part of their strategic plan where they're like, we're going to grow. And we know the only other, you know, we can merge and we can get laterals or we can cross-sell and grow the existing business that we have.

[00:20:41] And so typically I just see it as part of that, maybe with some, you know, lunch and learn series, some trainings around it and providing opportunity for the lawyers to familiarize themselves with what this means, as well as their partners. And, you know, how to go about, you know, having these conversations. Yeah, interesting. So, Rebecca, tell me a story of a firm that you worked with. You don't have to mention their name, obviously. But they worked with you to do cross-selling. What were the problems they had before?

[00:21:11] And what were the things that you advised them to do and the actions that they took? And what were the results of that effort? Sure. So I've worked with firms that have had, you know, a client that they're doing a ton of work for in a particular practice area and, you know, have had trouble breaking out of that particular practice.

[00:21:34] And so getting in there and having some real strategic conversations with the relationship partner of that client and trying to understand, you know, what's been holding them back. You know, maybe they got burned because they tried to refer something before and it didn't go well. Right. And so they've just been locked out. They're like, I'm not doing it. And so kind of greasing the wheels a little bit and being like, I totally understand, you know, being empathetic to the situation.

[00:22:03] But then saying, you know, finding their identifying an opportunity and saying, well, I think this could be a really big opportunity for us. Would you be willing to give it another go? Right. And just trying to help them. And then lo and behold, right, like their referring partner like hits it off with their client, you know, and then it goes well and everything is great.

[00:22:26] Right. So, you know, there are those those times where it's like something is stuck that you have to have a conversation with that relationship partner to figure out, you know, what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So have you had people that tell you, I just don't think our firm can do this? Have you ever had anything like that where they just say, I just don't think we're the right DNA to really do a lot of cross selling before?

[00:22:52] Or do you think every firm has that within where they can actually make the change? I think they definitely can make the change. I think there definitely have had firms like someone I was rereading in the email exchange earlier today where they said, you know, we're just we're not ready for this. Like, I just don't think that we're ready for this. And and that came from their, you know, marketing person.

[00:23:16] But I wonder if, you know, if I had a conversation with some of the lawyers there and really pressed it, figuring out what it is, just like I just said, like, what is it that's keeping you from doing this? Because it could be that they're just uncomfortable or they're too busy or they think they're too busy or whatever the thing is. But there's something that we can work through. Or maybe it's a comp situation and it's not set up right. And if comp's not set up, I mean, we haven't talked about that at all.

[00:23:42] But I mean, if it's not set up in a way that benefits them, then, you know, that's a that's a big stopper right there. Oh, yeah. Like I've I talked to a candidate today that he said that his firm has an origination policy where whoever talks to the client first, even if it's a phone call that comes into the firm, he gets 100 percent of the origination for. And so it just really doesn't incentivize people to share. And you're in a network of people, however large your firm is, you're all moving in the same direction.

[00:24:11] And if you're not working together, you're never going to reach your full potential as an organization. And the good news is there are law firms that do the things that you're talking about, where they reward people for sharing and for helping out their colleagues. Economically, the incentives are there and they've got the systems and structure and people like you to help them facilitate that. And so as we bring this to a close, Rebecca, I want to thank you for being here. This is an important topic.

[00:24:38] But if you could share with this three action steps, somebody listening to this, whether you're a law firm leader or you're in an accounting firm or management consulting firm or you're a partner in a firm. What are three action steps that person can take to really increase the cross selling and their organization? Sure. I think the first is take a step back and take a realistic look at whether you're set up for success for this initiative.

[00:25:03] I think looking at your compensation arrangement like we just talked about, as well as just kind of like the vibe of how things are at the firm. What is the culture? Are people very collaborative? And if not, how can we create opportunities for collaboration? And I mean, I think retreats are perfect for that. Yeah, right. So that's number one.

[00:25:28] I think, you know, once you feel like you've got all that squared away, you know, coming up with some strategy around how we're going to identify opportunities for cross selling, you know, running some of that analysis, doing that competitive intelligence research, leveraging AI where you can.

[00:25:47] And then having those conversations with the practice leaders or relationship partners of those clients that you identify to whittle it down to something that can be managed, you know, 10 or so over the next year. Great. And see where you go. And then three, I guess, on the, you know, see where it goes.

[00:26:11] Make sure that you're staying on top of it, being accountable, providing updates, sharing that information internally so that we keep the enthusiasm and the excitement around the initiative. Yeah, absolutely. Have a little internal competition. That never hurts, right? We love it. Yeah. Good. Well, Rebecca, thanks for being here. And tell us about your offerings. What do you do? What do you have that you'd like our listeners to know? And we're going to put all your contact information on the show notes. Thanks, Scott.

[00:26:36] Well, I am the founder of Edwards Advisory, and that's a business development consulting company for primarily with law firms that really like any seller doers out there that are trying to bring in the work and do the work. I work with those individuals one-on-one doing BD coaching. I come into firms and do trainings around things like cross selling or, you know, BD strategy and that kind of thing.

[00:26:58] I also work with firms when they have special projects like cross selling or like lateral integration, different things like that, that they don't have enough hands to get done. That's great. Well, I know that they appreciate you for your expertise and your guidance to help them get the job done, which is where most of them need some help. So thank you for that, Rebecca, and thank you for being on the show. And I'd love to have you back on the show talking about this and other topics related to business development. That sounds good, Scott. I'm a big fan of the Rainmaking podcast, so I'm really excited to have been here.

[00:27:27] Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Rainmaking podcast. For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.