TRP 324: Doubling Down on a Niche with Sharon Toerek

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love. Hey, this is Scott Love with The Rainmaking Podcast. Hello, friends. Thanks for joining me on another episode. This is one that's going to really help you develop that flywheel in your practice, and I promise it's going to give you some solid ideas and action steps.

[00:00:38] Our topic title today is Doubling Down on a Niche, and our guest is Sharon Toerek. Sharon is a marketing and intellectual property attorney who helps independent marketing, digital, PR, and creative agencies protect their assets and turn their ideas into revenue. And what she's talking about today is how she's built a vibrant practice and how you can too, and how you can double down on a niche.

[00:01:01] Now, this podcast is sponsored by SurePoint Legal Insights, formerly known as Leopard Solutions, turning legal intelligence into opportunity. The show is also sponsored by The Rainmaking Magazine. If you are an intellectually motivated and results-focused professional who wants to be the number one expert in your field, then you need to keep business development top of mind.

[00:01:28] Visit therainmakingmagazine.com today to sign up for your free 30-day trial, now with audio features enabled. Check it out. I promise it's going to help you. Thanks for listening. I hope you get some great ideas from my conversation with Sharon Toerek today. Hey, this is Scott Love with The Rainmaking Podcast. Our guest today is Sharon Toerek, and we're talking about doubling down on a niche. Sharon, thanks for joining me on the show today. It's great to be here, Scott. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:58] Yeah, I'm excited to have you on this show because you are a practicing lawyer and you've got a pretty interesting niche that we'll hear about. So you've done the things that we're going to talk about and I think will be especially helpful to those listening. And so let me ask you this. Tell me, how would you define what a niche is? And then we'll kind of talk about how you'd recommend people really develop and find that niche. I think a niche can mean a couple of different things. And I'm happy to share how, you know, we think of it at our firm.

[00:02:25] But I think a niche can be a deep and narrow vertical. So for example, if you're a professional service firm serving a particular industry, that would be an example of a marketing firm that serves HVAC contractors. Or you can go horizontal with your niche, meaning we are the best mergers and acquisitions law firm for the financial services industry.

[00:02:53] It can be a cocktail, a vertical and horizontal, which I find is really, really narrow and difficult to do. But it could be one or both of those things. So I define it as going narrow and deep in our business. But I also think if you have a particular competency in a technical or professional area, it could be a horizontal niche applied amongst many industries. Yeah, that's interesting. And I think the way I've looked at a niche, it's three-dimensional chess.

[00:03:20] We have all these variables and we have to find the right algorithm. And it's different for some people. I remember placing a trademark partner once. And I told them, I said, the one thing that's interesting about you is that every company in the world is a prospect. And you might do this one thin layer of that and that's it. So finding a niche can help them to find a certain industry or other people that they're litigation specialists. They might be able to go deeper inside a certain company and pull out different litigation matters.

[00:03:50] But that's interesting. You would talk about vertical and horizontal. Let's talk about that a little bit more. What are ways people can get their arms around those concepts of a vertical niche or horizontal niche? Sharon? Well, a vertical niche, I think, requires pattern recognition and a deep understanding of a particular industry.

[00:04:10] For example, in the B2B world, which is the world that our firm practices in, it could also be understanding a particular consumer if you are a consumer-oriented company. For example, we know more about marketing to suburban moms than anybody else does. And so we help brands who want to get in front of that audience. So vertical means understanding patterns in a particular industry.

[00:04:39] And if you want to even go deeper than that, it's a subset of a particular need or want of that industry and applying your professional expertise to it. Horizontal, I think, is when a business is particularly proficient in a skill. It could be a technology application. It could be what we consider a softer skill, although I don't like that term, but let's say PR and communications.

[00:05:07] And apply it across all different kinds of industries. But you know how to do that one thing better than your competitors do. And you can do it no matter what they're selling and perhaps no matter whom they're selling it to. So I think it's, like I said earlier, a challenge to be proficient at both. And so I think most businesses are going to have to determine, first of all, if niching is for them. And I'm a huge advocate of it.

[00:05:35] And if it is, then is it vertical or is it horizontal for them? Yeah, I think that's interesting. And I like the way you brought that geographic dimension to it. I think it helps us to visualize how that is. Like, I remember I talked about a trademark partner. All I did was just one thing. But one thing for all these different types of companies is kind of horizontal. But then you could take that and you can kind of go deeper in terms of, let me introduce you to all my other colleagues in the intellectual property space. All these other things that we do and go deeper and deeper.

[00:06:05] And I've seen some law firms, they might have a niche such as franchise law. Right. They're dealing with companies that have the exact same issues in any other type of industry or type of company. Yet the nuanced uniqueness of franchise law makes that law firm seem attractive because they understand those nuances. Great. And I would call that a horizontal expertise because it doesn't matter whether the franchise organizations are selling meatball subs or, you know, dry cleaning services.

[00:06:35] It's you have the same compliance rules. You have the same disclosure requirements. You have the same other legal issues. So that's an excellent example in the legal world of what I would consider to be a horizontal focus and a horizontal niche. Exactly right. Let's just say you had somebody you were mentoring in whatever type of professional service that they're in.

[00:06:58] And they think they might be able to test out certain ideas to see if the niche is viable. What advice would you give to that person in terms of being able to develop a niche? Where should they go? What should they do to become known within this vertical or even a horizontal niche? I think the most important thing they need to do is spend more time with the clients or customers in that niche than they do with their colleagues.

[00:07:25] I can tell you personally, I spend far more time with folks in my client industry than I do with my fellow lawyers. And that's intentional and that is purposeful and strategic because I want to know what they're thinking by talking to them and what they're experiencing day to day in their worlds. I also want to hear what the thought leadership they're exposed to is telling them and leading them to think about or ponder.

[00:07:54] Because you can spot clues and patterns based upon both those things, what they're hearing and what they're expressing to you about what their lives are like, what their concerns are like. And so spend time where your desired clients or customers spend their time. Go to their conferences. Subscribe to the professional publications that they are most likely to consume. Talk to them.

[00:08:21] Go where they convene and, you know, follow them on the social platforms of your choice and learn about who they consider the experts to be in their industry. So I think it's being intentional about spending your time where they spend their time so you can really learn as much as you can. That is that's my number one tip. Those are brilliant answers, Sharon. I really appreciate that.

[00:08:45] But something that I think is interesting, what you said, is find out what thought leadership they're exposed to and how that influences what they're all about and what their issues are. Talk more about that. What does that mean exactly? And who tangibly are those people that you would consider thought leaders in a certain niche? And what are some examples of that, Sharon? Well, I mean, my personal best example is I started a podcast for my client industry specifically because, well, I did it for a few reasons.

[00:09:13] But one of the main reasons was I wanted a chance to talk to the experts who they were listening to. And one of the ways to do that was to provide a platform and a forum to have a conversation with those experts. And in interviewing them, I've learned so much about what they counsel, the same clients that we serve, the same industry that we serve, what they think about where the industry is going.

[00:09:39] And they're the same folks who are interacting with people in our client, you know, our target market and also who those folks are listening to on a regular basis. So I want to know who the other experts. So whatever you could do to put yourself in position to talk to other non-competing experts. I mean, it's good to talk to your competitors, too. I'm a big believer in that. But non-competing experts who serve the same desired market you think you want to serve, the more you learn.

[00:10:09] And you can make them smarter as well about the value that you bring to the client market. Exactly right. What's an example of that? Are these management consultants? Are these professors at universities? Who are these experts that you've, in your experience, reached out to? So we interview folks on our podcast who are experts in sort of looking around the corner. And they are either, they could be marketing agency owners themselves.

[00:10:37] They might be specialists in business development for professional marketing businesses. They might be specialists in technology. As you might imagine, we've had a lot of experts around AI because that is something that the marketing world is spending a lot of time thinking about right now. So technology, business development, operations, marketing, and folks from brand side.

[00:11:01] So anybody who has a point of view that our audience might find interesting on an issue that they might face regularly in their business. That's great. And so let's say you met them, you had them on your show. So was that the end of your contact with those people? Or is there anything else you did to move those relationships forward with these thought leaders in your niche? Sometimes they are in your niche. And so there's opportunities to have follow-on conversations, certainly.

[00:11:30] And we're always open to that. Although that isn't why we invite them on the show. But, you know, it is a lovely side effect. I'm not going to lie. Otherwise, it's really interesting how often they can turn into opportunities for collaboration, either on co-producing content, making referrals to one another, just sort of passing on, hey, did you know information to them from your perspective about the industry and them doing the same?

[00:11:58] And it's funny, if you do this long enough, you start running into some of these other experts on a more routine basis at some of the same conferences. You start seeing them in some of the same publications. And like I said earlier, it's all pattern recognition, right? The more time you spend learning about a sliver of something, in my view. With sale maximum, you have to do something 100 times or 1,000 times to be an expert in it.

[00:12:24] But the more times you see these people, the more opportunities you kind of organically spot to help each other out. Absolutely right. And what I've done, I've done the exact same thing. I didn't have as sophisticated as a plan as you've described. Basically, who are the people I want to get to know that can introduce me to the people I really want to get to know? And we're not competing. And what I've done, it's been joint presentations. Yeah. I've been invited to co-present that media companies put on.

[00:12:51] And then even getting invited to speak at some of the conferences that some of these other people have put on, which I think really moves the brand further along. And had I not pursued a niche like you're talking about, those opportunities wouldn't come about. What would be your advice to someone that says, you know, I'm just too busy. And I don't know if I want a niche because I like being, and this is what I hate whenever I hear people tell me,

[00:13:20] I'm not a specialist, I'm a Swiss Army guy. And maybe that's good, maybe that's bad, I'm not sure. But what would be your advice to someone that's just on the fence about really taking these steps to develop a niche? Well, I've heard the Swiss Army knife description and analogy as well. And my reaction to it is that I think that only works if you're a very, very, very large professional services firm. And you have a lot of people and a lot of resources to reach a lot of people.

[00:13:48] For an entrepreneurial-sized professional service firm, a mid-market or small firm, I don't think the Swiss Army knife strategy works that well because it's just too resource-laden. You just have to know too much about too much. And it's hard. It's hard. It doesn't scale as well. And it's hard to find the right group of people who serve in the multiple areas of discipline you need them to know.

[00:14:15] And so I say that it's a leap of faith to take a niche-based approach to your business. And our clients are not immune to this, by the way. It's a leap of faith for them to say, you know, we're going to provide this type of marketing service to this type of client. Because their thoughts automatically skip to, well, what about all the other opportunities we're not taking advantage of? And I find it actually works in the opposite.

[00:14:41] The more focused you get about who you want to serve, how you want to serve them, and not for nothing why you want to serve them. Why did you pick them? I don't think we can discount the why that needs to be, you know, center to all of this. It gets easier to find the opportunities to help them. When we started our firm, this is not my first firm, but it's my first niche-focused firm.

[00:15:05] And when we started it, it was after spending years serving this market that we serve and getting exposed to them routinely. And we did maybe one or two or three things for that market. And now we do many more things for that market because we've been around them so long, we've found other ways to serve and help them. So I actually think it opens up more opportunity to be focused and niched than to be a Swiss Army knife. That's great.

[00:15:35] What would be pitfalls somebody needs to watch out for? Let's say they start going forward. I think I'm going to look at this niche. I've had success with these types of companies. I've earned trust from them. I think they might refer me to some of their friendly competitors. And somebody's on their way. What would be the pitfalls they need to watch out for as they develop a certain type of niche?

[00:15:56] Well, I think that I wouldn't pursue a niche that I wasn't willing to put the time and energy and capital around learning a lot about and staying current about and giving away a lot first before I expect it in return. And what I mean by that is giving of your knowledge, your content. You mentioned co-presenting, speaking at conferences and things like that.

[00:16:26] These are the table stakes, I think, for being able to monetize and leverage a niche. You've got to be willing to give before you expect to be able to hang a shingle and say, I do this for these businesses or this for these people and expect them to just line up outside your door or your virtual door. So it's a give first. And then you cash in on that giving over time. And again, I think this is why having the why is so important.

[00:16:55] Why do you want to serve that marketplace? Or why do you think you're well positioned to serve that marketplace? So I say give first. And that can mean with your knowledge. It can mean with your time. It can mean a lot of different things depending on what kind of business you have. But I think give first in the community that you want to serve. And it's a flywheel. It really is. Because then you start seeing more opportunities. They start seeing you more often. And it becomes a little less feast and famine and a little bit more predictable. That's great.

[00:17:24] Tell me what you mean by a flywheel. And how do we know when we really have some momentum cooking? Well, I mean, success leaves clues, right? You know, based on how the numbers look. But I think what I mean by a flywheel is when all the parts of the efforts that you're making start pointing to one another. The relationships you develop, perhaps, with other consultants or professionals that serve your industry.

[00:17:50] The content you create and publish to demonstrate your expertise to a particular marketplace. The events that you physically or virtually show up at so that you can relationship develop with the people or the other experts in those industries. They all start pointing back and forth to one another. And that's what I mean by a flywheel. They all start, you know, if you can picture yourself on a hamster wheel. It's the best way I can think of it right now.

[00:18:16] They all start making it easier to turn that wheel because they're all doing a little bit of it for you. And then the wheel starts moving a little bit more easily. That's great. What if it's not working? What if somebody goes down this path and they're just not getting any momentum and they're just slugging away and it's not working? What would your advice be to that person? My first piece of advice would be take a step back and examine why you decided initially that this was an appropriate niche for you to pursue.

[00:18:46] And if your why is solid, you know you offer something that they need and you are genuine in wanting to serve and help them, then maybe look at what you're offering and determine how you might tweak it, adjust it, add to it. Or maybe you're offering too much to them and so your messaging is kind of blurry. So look at the why, then look at the what you're offering them, and then look at maybe the how you're communicating it.

[00:19:13] And also, you know, double check some of your original instincts. Maybe it's a market you love to serve, but maybe it's not that profitable a market for you or there isn't enough opportunity out there. And so maybe it's something you still continue to serve them, but your go-to messaging in the market is not maybe focused on them. So that happens sometimes, I guess. But, you know, you have to constantly be, I think, looking at all those three things.

[00:19:42] And, you know, you have to start with the metrics that determine your success. Is it impact? Are these measures financial? You have to decide what success means for you, measure it, and then look at those other three things. That's good advice. And let me kind of go back to the why here. That's kind of a surprising answer. I didn't expect to get that answer when I asked you about that earlier. Why is that important? And what would be it? Is there a good why? Is there a bad why? I mean, some people might say, well, I just want to, you know, earn an income and I think I can serve this niche.

[00:20:10] What are some really good reasons for what a why would be for a professional service provider? Yeah, and I'm glad you asked the follow-up question because I don't mean do what you love and only what you love and the money will follow. I don't personally, you know, I think believe that very deeply on a chemical level. What I mean is the why could be that, but it doesn't have to be that.

[00:20:35] The why has got to be, has got to consider are there enough of this type of client and do they have the amount of resources necessary to make them profitable to serve? So do I enjoy working with these people? Do I enjoy the issues that they need our help with? Do I enjoy solving those problems and creating those solutions to solve those problems? So there's lots that go into why. Some of it's money, quite frankly.

[00:21:04] Some of it's purpose. And some of it is expertise. And, you know, you just have to determine which of those things matter most to you as the leader of the business that you're running and measure against the results you're getting on a recurring basis, whatever those intervals are for you. That's great, Sharon. Thank you so much for sharing that wisdom with us. And as we bring it to a close, I always like to close out every interview with three action steps.

[00:21:34] Somebody's listening to this. They want to get started. What would be three action steps you'd give them to progress forward on this? Step one, take a look at your business as it is today and determine whether there's any patterns there, either of types of work that you like to do, types of clients you like to serve. Once you get the answer there, then start step two is go where those people are.

[00:21:59] Spend time with those people and learn more about what they need, want, desire and start to draw some dotted lines between what you do and what they need. And then third, you know, don't discount the relationship building part of it. I think that the pandemic made relationship building kind of made a lot of us feel like we were back to square one in terms of it because there's, you know, there weren't enough opportunities and now there's a ton of opportunities.

[00:22:28] And so communication and relationship building is step three. Talk to these people, spend time, show face, make calls, you know, all the things that take up some time, but are investments that you need to make in the relationships that are going to help you be successful. That's great, Sharon. That's great advice. And before we go, tell us about your offerings, your services. What do you do and have where you'd like our listeners to know? And we'll put all of your contact info in the show notes. Well, thanks, Scott. I appreciate it.

[00:22:57] So our firm is Toric Law. We do business in our client market as legal and creative. We are a law firm for independent marketing agencies across the U.S. And we basically help them in three areas. The first is intellectual property enforcement, protection, monetization. The second is contract development and negotiation. We help them enter into good, strong contracts with their clients, their contractors, their vendors.

[00:23:24] The third is marketing regulation compliance and whether that means following FTC rules in marketing or being compliant with data privacy rules, for example. And then we do quite a bit of AI risk management these days because everybody's trying to figure out what the legal implications of operationalizing AI in their businesses might be. So that's a little bit about us. And you can find us at legalandcreative.com. And I also produce a podcast called The Innovative Agency.

[00:23:53] So if there are any marketing firms listening, please join us over there. We talk to lots of experts in your industry and interview them about the things that matter to you and sort of take a look around the corner at where the industry is headed. That's great. Well, Sharon, it's nice to have you on the show. And it's nice to hear that you've actually done the things you talked about today. And I appreciate you elaborating on that also. And like I mentioned, anybody that wants to reach out to Sharon can just go to the show notes. Thanks so much for sharing your insights with us today, Sharon. Thanks, Scott.

[00:24:25] Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast. For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com. Thank you. Thank you.