TRP 297: [Legal] Unique Challenges in Lateral Moves for Partners with Chuck Curtis

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high-stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love. You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love. This is part of our Tuesday series for those just within the legal issue. Let's say you're a law firm partner and you're thinking about making a move. Maybe you've considered going to other platforms.

[00:00:38] Maybe you're just not sure if your firm can really help you achieve your goals. So we're going to talk about unique challenges that lateral partners face when they move. Our special guest today is a repeat guest and a good friend of mine, Chuck Curtis. Chuck is a dynamic professional with nearly 40 years of professional services experience, including as Senior Director of Attorney Recruiting at Pillsbury from 2017 up until 2023.

[00:01:02] And now he consults to law firms in areas of recruiting, integration, and other organizations similar to that. As always, this show is sponsored by SharePoint Legal Insights, formerly known as Leopard Solutions, turning legal intelligence into opportunity. And the show is also sponsored by The Rainmaking Magazine. Don't lose business to the competition. Read this publication and keep business development top of mind.

[00:01:27] Visit therainmakingmagazine.com today to chart your course to greater rainmaking success. I hope you get some great ideas from my conversation with Chuck today. Thanks for listening. Hey, this is Scott Love with The Rainmaking Podcast. Our special guest today, our repeat guest today is Chuck Curtis, and we're talking about unique challenges and lateral moves for partners. Chuck, thank you for joining me on the show today. Scott, it's a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Absolutely. And so today's topic for those people that are listening,

[00:01:57] if you're a law firm partner and you've thought about moving or you're going to move, if you're thinking maybe I might move at some point in the next few years, this is an episode you don't want to miss. And so we're talking to those people that are in law firms, in partners, and they're going to move. We're going to look at some of the peculiar issues, the best practices that you can take back and apply and hopefully make it a smooth and less disruptive process as it can normally be.

[00:02:28] And it can sometimes normally be a bumpy ride. So first, Chuck, let me ask you this. What would your advice be to a partner that's deciding if they should move or not? I mean, there is a cost to extricate themselves from a firm and move. What do you think about that, Chuck? You know, I think lots of factors go into it, but I think the big one is platform-driven, right? Are you on a platform that supports your practice,

[00:02:55] and are you getting the support and the resources that you need to be successful in your practice? And another piece of that is your practice area, one that the firm is featuring. Sometimes at firms, they can be selective about which areas are the ones that they advertise and publicize, and then there's others that are just kind of there. So I think that all those things go into it. And are you getting the most out of that platform? Are they advertising?

[00:03:24] Are they supporting your practice? Are they proactive in doing the things that you need to build your practice? And I think it's, I mean, we've both been around, taking a few laps around this track, right? And I think that partners, I think, get a pretty good sense of how their practice is valued and how they are supported at the firms that they're at. So if you're just kind of getting a vibe that you're nice for you to be there, but they're not interested in promoting your practice or you, then that might be a good time to look around.

[00:03:54] Or maybe it's a specialty area that the firm just isn't as interested in as you are, and there's other firms that may have a better platform for you to grow your business the way you want to go. Yeah. What do you think, what if someone's just, I really don't want to move. I like my team, but we're just not getting a lot of love over here. We were like, we're in the basement and we're just not getting a lot of sunlight. Do you think that person should talk to leadership? What do you think about that? Yeah. I mean, I think that's the first step, right?

[00:04:22] Is to always have a conversation, you know, going way back to my days in human resources and through partner recruiting. There's no surprises, right? I truly believe in that. So I think that partners should have conversations. You know, it shouldn't be a decision that you decide, you know, in January, you're not real happy. And in February, you decided to go, right? I mean, it should be a process that's drawn out where you have conversations. Let the firm know that this is what you're looking for. But, you know, I think that sometimes there reaches a point in time where you realize,

[00:04:52] hey, I should, in a minimum, take a look around, right? Which is, that's like catnip to recruiters. Oh, you want to take a look around? We can help. As it should be. And then, yeah, recruiters are terrific at helping. You know, the good recruiters really are helpful in that process. But it needs to be a thoughtful process. And you need to really, you know, good partners really need to have given it a lot of thought. Because when they come to market, you know, they're going to get asked a lot of questions. First by the recruiter who will ask good questions.

[00:05:19] And then if you start to talk with other firms, you know, you can't, you know, just be, hey, I'm kind of thinking, it's really kind of fun for me to move. You know, I mean, it's got to be thoughtful, thought through. And there needs to be a compelling business case made by the partner and the firm. So, yeah. So, I think that's the right approach. That's really helpful. Let's go to proof of concept. Tell me about people that you've seen that came to the firm you were with and it worked out really well.

[00:05:48] What do you think their reasons for leaving their previous firms were, Chuck? Chuck. Yeah. I mean, over the years, you know, and I've done this, as you know, Scott, for a long time. And I was at Pillsbury for almost 16 years. And we hired somewhere in the ballpark of 250 lateral partners, right? So, we have done it for a while. And we've had great success. We've had a few that didn't work out too. But I think that the real keys are, you know, open communication to the partners that are

[00:06:17] coming in need to have a good handle on what it is that they do and what it is that they're looking for at a firm. And they need to click with our partners. You know, we had Pillsbury, and as I was at Pillsbury, we had a meet with, you know, between 15 and 25 partners. So, it was, you know, a relatively long process. But the idea was just to establish connections. And some of that is kind of getting set up so that when you come to the firm, you've got enough people that you can, you've got resources to come in and pitch business together

[00:06:46] because that's a team sport. And so, I think that that's the thing, you know, a partner needs to be focused, kind of know what they want, and be able to come in, hit the ground running. And for the most part, we made that happen. And sometimes it didn't work, but I think our percentage rate at Pillsbury was in the 70% range, 70-70. Yeah, that's really good. Which is above average. Yeah. It's, yeah, there's just, you know, better than anybody that there's just lots of factors that determine success. Absolutely right.

[00:07:13] And I've found that groups for the energy and the spend that a firm makes is a lot better than individual partners. So, let's talk about groups for a second. I know that some of my more successful, larger placements, I'm not talking with the group leader. Initially, I'm talking with number two or number three that says, I don't have the client relationships, but let me introduce you to the group leader. And then we move together as a group. That happens a lot. Let's say a partner is considering moving as a group.

[00:07:42] Maybe it's a group leader. Maybe it's number two or number three. When do you think they should bring it up to their partner colleagues, to the group leader? Or should they? If they're thinking about moving as a group, do you think they should talk before they start looking? Let's say he's halfway through the process. I'm at the LPQ phase. I want to invite you in on this. Or after they get the offer. I've got some people that say, I'm not going to say anything to anybody until I got paper. Because what if they don't go? What if they talk?

[00:08:11] And I don't want to risk that. What do you think about that, Chuck? Yeah, I think in my experience, the groups that successfully move are groups that successfully strategize together as a group and have their ducks in a row before they come. I think, and it just seems to be something that's informal at your firm, right? That you have a conversation, but there needs to be some consensus among the group. My experience has been that if there isn't that, that it brings variables into the recruiting process.

[00:08:41] And you know how much lawyers love risk. You know, they don't like it much at all. And firms don't like it either when you're bringing people in. And that just brings in lots of potential risk if there hasn't been some conversation about that. And we've had situations, you know, in my experience over the years that a group leader will say, look, I'm really committed. I want to do this. But let me talk to these couple of people. And then those couple of people are like, yeah, I don't know. And, you know, and then it, you know, the gears get slowed.

[00:09:10] And you know what happens when things slow down in a partner recruiting process. So I think that the best practice, and obviously I'm on the recruiting side, I'm not a lawyer, but I think that the best shot at success involves a group that has already said, yeah, look, we're going to look around together. We're in this together. Let's start talking to firms. And it doesn't mean that everybody talks to the firm, but they designate the leader to have the conversations. And then when the deal comes, you know, everybody gets their terms.

[00:09:38] But my experience is that those are the most successful group moves, that they've made a group decision and they're in it together. I think so too. And you think of it as a business. The CEO isn't going to move before the CFO. I mean, if you want to look at it like that, I mean, these are people that are working together. And I've even noticed, even if they're working with different clients in the same area and they do collaborate together, share resources, ideas, et cetera, business development, that can work really well if they're working together as a group.

[00:10:06] And I also think the optics of a firm recruiting a group from another firm, that's better than an individual. What do you think about that, Chuck? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the group coming in and the group dynamic is good, right? Because you've got different resources, you're supporting more partners, you know, you bring in a certain practice strength by bringing in a group. And they're already collaborative. And then hopefully they'll fit into the firm's collaboration, work with the partners at the firm.

[00:10:34] And it's also, you know, from a marketing public relations standpoint, to bring in a group is a bigger hit on the market than to bring in an individual. So yeah, I think that's great. Another, you know, it varies that we brought in some great individual partners too, but I think the group dynamic, you know, gives everybody a bit of a charge. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. It was interesting. We, we, this was shortly before I retired, I retired in 2022 from Pillsbury, which was

[00:11:04] I had a great experience at Pillsbury, as you know, but, you know, we were looking at an environmental group and I won't get too specific about it, but the leader of the group was, was very determined to move, but it was a big group. This would have been a big splashy one. And, you know, been in the American lawyer and all that stuff. And, and he was committed. The recruiter I worked with was a really experienced recruiter, really good, knew the partner really well. And we got to the phase of terms.

[00:11:31] And then when it came to the group coming, the group just wasn't as interested there. Well, you know, what about this? What about this? And, and we're looking from my perspective, you know, at small ball stuff, whereas I felt like the leader of the group really had it together, but he was, you know, he had a big practice. He needed his group to come with him. So my takeaway from it is in no disrespect to him, he's a fantastic lawyer and, and, and a great, you know, very successful, but the group just wasn't quite lined up in the right way.

[00:11:59] And it's interesting because the recruiter is a fantastic recruiter. I mean, it, it all, we all had the best intentions, but at the end of the day, it just, he, the team wasn't going to come. And so, and so he stayed. So that's, it's just an example of why it's important to kind of, to get together, kind of have that conversation, have a consensus among the group before you go to market. I think, I think that just works out better in the long run. I think so too. My philosophy is if you're going to lose out on something, lose out early, not later, you know, let's just make sure that everybody on board and all that too.

[00:12:29] So that's really insightful, Chuck. Let me ask you this on the lateral partner questionnaire. When a partner fills it out, some firms will ask, what is your current comp? Depending on what the rules are and their jurisdiction, others will ask about what are your compensation expectations? I know there's different schools of thought on this. What do you think, what is your opinion? Should a partner fill it out? What are my comp expectations? What do you think they should do with that part of the form, Chuck? That's a million dollar question, isn't it, Scott?

[00:12:59] It, you know, it should be straightforward in some ways, but I understand why, you know, you want to leave room for negotiation than for the partners. I mean, I think as a partner, my advice to the partner would be, look, just be honest about what your expectation is. And it can be in a range. It doesn't need to be a specific number. But if you give me a range, and it can be a $300,000 range, it can be a $500,000 range, right? It doesn't need to be a narrow, you know, within $20,000.

[00:13:28] But let's just make sure we're in the same ballpark before we go down a long road of conversations. We meet all these people, and it sounds like it's going to be good. And then we realize that we're a million dollars apart, and we're not going to be able to make it work. I understand the reluctance of candidates and even recruiters to put a number down. They're like, you know, have the firm come to us with something, and we'll work with it. So, you know, I've seen lots of that over the years.

[00:13:55] But I really think if, you know, you're starting a relationship with a partner, let's be open, let's be honest, let's establish that now. And if we don't have, you know, if the ballparks don't mesh, then that's okay. You know, that's fine. Then go find your place. You know, maybe it's not with us, but that's all right. But let's not waste all the time that it takes in the partner hiring process to find that out. So we were always big on, you know, and we use the jump ballpark.

[00:14:24] Let's make sure we're in the same ballpark. It didn't always need to be with a candidate. It could be with the recruiter. And that, to me, in a lot of ways, is the way that the good recruiters really distinguish themselves, right? The best recruiters had a sense of that, and they knew how to answer the questions to me in a way that we get the candidate. You don't have to get the candidate. You don't have to put the candidate on the spot. And you weren't negotiating their compensation. But it was just like, you tell me we're in the same ballpark.

[00:14:51] Tell me that we've got something to work with, and then we'll do what it takes. But that's the thing that we need to determine. Are we close enough to keep going forward to make a deal? Absolutely right, Chuck. I think that's great. Something I've told people, I say, look at a compensation discussion, not as a negotiation, but a collaboration. Once we both decided this is going to work, we want to go there, and we may be looking at other options, too. Let's make a decision. Let's find the number that works for us.

[00:15:21] And candidates have told me, I don't want to negotiate against myself, and I've tried to convey, you're not doing that. You're collaborating. And then sometimes I might say, well, what if they give you this number? No, that's too low. What about this number? Well, that might work. What about this? Sometimes I'll try to do it that way also. Yeah. But one other final question here, Chuck, and I do appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us today, by the way, outside of ethics issues related to a partner moving, what are some

[00:15:46] other best practices that he or she should keep top of mind as they're transitioning out of their firm to somewhere else? You know, I think that it's just really important. Once we've gotten all this other stuff out of the way, right? All the easy stuff, like negotiating comp and then deciding to come to your firm. And obviously, I'm kidding. It's not easy. It's always a process, and we have to work our way through it. But once that decision is made, I mean, I think that the partner just needs to be very

[00:16:14] upfront with their firm, right? And go to them and say, you know, this is the decision that I made. I'm going to be leaving the firm. And have that conversation with them so that they make it clear. A lot of times, as you well know, then there will be a counter. The firm will come back and make counters and all that kind of stuff. So that needs to be thoughtful as well. And I think that the best recruiters and the best firm recruiters and the best outside recruiters have had that conversation with their candidate before, right? And they say, look, there may be a counter offer.

[00:16:43] You need to be prepared because a lot of times firms will counter. And so you want to have your person be prepped. But you need to be upfront. Say, look, I'm going. This is the way that I'm going to handle it. And if it's a team move, right? It gets a little more complicated because there are other people. But they all kind of do the same. They do the same thing, right? They work in unison. But at that point, it's an upfront process. And this has been going on long times. Firms aren't like nobody falls out of their chair. Oh, my God, you're leaving? We've never had a partner leave.

[00:17:13] That's 30 years ago. So I think most firms have figured out ways to do it. But to be upfront and honest is the best way. It's interesting. And I don't know how you probably see this more than I do. But at times, we'll have people go to their firm to tell them what they're planning to do. And then the firm will ask them where they're going. And they don't want to say. And that's kind of curious. So I don't know if you have a thought on that. But I always thought it was like, keep it all up front.

[00:17:45] And we're all big. We're grownups and adults. And it's OK to explain that. But that's just a quirk, I guess. But the bottom line is you need to let your intentions be known. You know, we have candidates that went in and to give their resignations and got talked out of it and did not come to us. And I think 100% of them ended up leaving that firm within 12 to 18 months. Yeah, exactly. I don't know if you've had that same experience.

[00:18:13] But once you've communicated that to your firm that you're leaving, you know, then maybe it's not your choice or whatever. But I haven't found it to be the same very often after you make that communication. Yeah, you're right. And I think I've had some that have gotten counteroffers and taken them. You don't see it a lot in partners, but sometimes it does happen. But you're right. I think that the reason a partner is moving, I usually put it in one of two categories, either leadership issues or strategy issues.

[00:18:40] And those things are rarely fixed based on the departing words of a partner. There might be a short term bandaid. Why don't you give me why don't we give you more money? And oh, I'm a little bit more comfortable now than I was before. But those overarching problems really don't change that way. And this is interesting, Chuck. So one quick more thing on that topic. A lot of it, it's personal, but it's not personal, right? When you're leaving a firm.

[00:19:04] But a lot of it is practice section driven and what the emphasis are at the firm that you're at, right? If you're a practice section that your firm doesn't emphasize as much as others and it is not one of the bread and butter practice sections at the firm, then you may be looking to go somewhere else where it is and you've got greener processors, right? So it's not personal. You could love all the lawyers at your firm, but if they don't support your practice area the same way, then you have to make a business decision to go somewhere that you think you can grow your practice more.

[00:19:34] So I think that that's a distinguishing factor, too, is, you know, you have to take some of the personality out of it and put it in a business perspective of what works best for me. And I think, you know, the more professionally you can handle it, the better. And sometimes partners just need to go somewhere else to grow their practice because it's that practice area is better supported at the firm that they're moving to. Exactly right. And when it comes to the money, that's important. And should it be the most important thing, that's a personal choice.

[00:20:02] I've found those candidates where money is the primary motivation. That's never a good fit. I think when you're with the right platform, you end up making more money as a derivative success element to it. But what do you think about that concept, Chuck? Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. It's most partners are savvy enough. That's not their big consideration. I don't say it up front, right? I just want to make more money. And, you know, the ones that do, you know, it wasn't always a fit with us, right?

[00:20:31] Because we were not a firm that paid the most money. But yeah, I think that, you know, the economic considerations flow from the practice areas of your ability to grow your practice, right? If you're an IT partner at a firm that just doesn't have a strong IP practice, you want to be somewhere where they do have a strong IP practice. They can support you and, you know, go. You can move forward because the platform is really well known. And there's other practitioners.

[00:21:00] You can combine with a team that makes all of you work better together and you make more money. And then the money follows that. So, you know, I think that's, it's like find your area where you can really sell yourself and your business and the firm and the money follows. Money is your upfront consideration. I think that's a tougher proposition. Yeah, I totally agree with you, Chuck. Thank you for being here and sharing these ideas.

[00:21:24] I think this is helpful to kind of go deep on the things that you just don't hear a lot of people talk about related to partner moves. But I think, I know that you've probably cleared up a lot of questions that people have in moving, Chuck. Thank you so much for being here today. Scott, it is always a pleasure. You are the master of these. And it's always so fun to talk to you, to talk business with you. Thank you, Chuck. And then tell us more about your consulting services for everybody listening.

[00:21:50] And for everybody listening, check out the show notes and we'll put all of Chuck's contact info so you can connect with him right away. Yeah. Hey, thanks for that prompt. I appreciate it. And yeah, I've been out, geez, going on four years now since I retired from Pillsbury, which was fantastic. I loved working at Pillsbury and still love collaborating with my friends over there. But, you know, I've worked on some firm things on the compensation side, on the integration side.

[00:22:17] I'm working with a smaller firm in Orange County where we talk about a whole bunch of things. Just finished a big compensation project for our integration project for a Midwest firm. I'm embarking on a for a Bay Area firm on a project where we're trying to help them, you know, establish themselves in the marketplace. And then I do lots of individual coaching as well. I coach individual partners and also people in my business, right?

[00:22:43] In the in the partner hiring business, in-house people on a whole variety of topics. So kind of a bunch of different things. But it's really fun. And I'll tell you, compared to the hours of recruiters and hours of partners, it's much more manageable these days. So I'm having a good time with it. That's great, Chuck. I hope to come to L.A. and play golf with you at some point. Thank you so much for being on the show again. And I'm sure we'll have you back to talk about some of these other things we discussed today, Chuck. Scott, my pleasure. Thank you so much.

[00:23:15] Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast. For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.