TRP 289: Breaking Ground: How Successful Women Lawyers Develop Thriving Practices with Deborah Farone

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:23] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast. My name is Scott Love. Thank you for joining me on the show. I promise not to waste your time and to get right to the point and give you content that's going to help you. You're busy. You've got competing time demands and you're a professional in a professional services environment. You've got expectations placed on you to serve your clients. But guess what?

[00:00:42] You also need to learn how to grow your book. And that is the whole point of this show. We have almost 300 episodes. In fact, I talked to one person today. I said, just scroll through the past episodes and you'll find content that can help you regardless what your problems are. Our guest today is someone that really knows legal marketing. Her name is Deborah Farone, and she is one of the leading experts in the world on law firm marketing. She works with all different types and sizes of organizations, law firms that you've probably heard of several times.

[00:01:11] Our topic title today is Breaking Ground, How Successful Women Lawyers Develop Thriving Practices. And in fact, she just published a book by the same name. Check out the show notes. You'll be able to connect with Deborah directly and also order her book directly. Do that today. I'd highly recommend it. I've read her book and there's some great ideas in that.

[00:01:31] This podcast is sponsored by SurePoint Legal Insights, formerly known as Leopard Solutions, turning legal intelligence into opportunity. And also the show is sponsored by The Rainmaking Magazine for the intellectually driven and results focused professional who wants to grow their book of business. Visit therainmakingmagazine.com today to chart your course to greater rainmaking success.

[00:01:56] One thing I want to mention about the magazine is that we launched it this past fall. We changed the platform away from Substack, which is just kind of spammy and annoying in certain ways, into a world-class platform. We charge only $19 a month. Check it out. If you order the annual subscription to the magazine, I'll send you a signed copy of my book, Rainmaker Confidential Co-op.

[00:02:19] Authored with Henry DeVries and Mark LeBlanc. Check it out today. As always, thanks so much for listening. And here's my conversation with Deborah. Hey, this is Scott Love with The Rainmaking Podcast. Our special guest again is Deborah Ferron. And we're talking about breaking ground, how successful women lawyers develop thriving practices. Deborah, thanks for joining me on the show again. Scott, it's a pleasure to be here. Absolutely. And that's the title of your latest book.

[00:02:47] And let's get right into it. First, my question for you is this. How is client development and rainmaking, how is that different for women professionals and women partners compared to men? Well, I think there's one main difference that I can address in the book is lack of role models. You know, if we look at the top law firms in the country, less than 25% are led by women.

[00:03:11] And so as a woman associate or partner, there are fewer role models up there. So that's number one. But I think there's still some unconscious bias about bringing women to new business meetings, maybe inviting them to dinners or to lunches with all men. And so I can't solve every problem. But my feeling is if I can help empower women and give women those tools, that would be great.

[00:03:41] That's great. So let's kind of dig into that then. What are some of the tools that you talk about in your book, Deborah? Well, I think having a plan is so important. There are studies that say you are probably more than 50% more likely to actually complete a plan if you have written it down. So I think every woman, I think every really marketer, whether they're a man or a woman, needs to actually write down their plan.

[00:04:09] They need to know what their goal is, what type of client they want, how they're going to get there. And then they need a plan to actually achieve it where they say, by X date, I'm going to do this. By Y date, I'll do that. I think that is so important. And also realizing that relationships are so key when it comes to business development, particularly in the law and building trust with people who you know, people who you're doing business with and the people in your network.

[00:04:39] And let me ask you this kind of going further, just in this one topic here. Are there differences that you've seen women have in business plan? I don't know if you've actually read those plans or not, but is it different compared to men, the business plans that men write? Well, I think women have a tendency of not aiming as high when they come to the point of, I can do X.

[00:05:03] You know, there are studies that say that men are more likely to do a job if they're underqualified or suggest that they can do a job if they're underqualified and take that risk, whereas women are not necessarily. So I'd like to empower women to really think about what their goal is. What do they dream of having as their perfect practice? And then figure out how you're going to get there rather than say, I've done X and I have to continue doing X.

[00:05:30] I don't think we necessarily need to be happy with what we're just given. I think we need to be aspirational and have these plans. Sometimes we have great mentors, men or women, but other times we don't. We have to kind of find those mentors or experiment a little bit. But I think women can raise the bar for themselves, quite frankly, and achieve great things. Do you think having a mentor, is that something that they should put in their business plan? I think it's a great thing to have.

[00:05:59] You know, I spoke to women who had wonderful male mentors. I've had mentors. I've had women who had no mentors. So I don't think you necessarily have to have one. But I think if you have people that you admire, whether you call them your mentor or not. Ellen Holloman, who's a great lawyer that I spoke with, told me about how she had a terrific mentor early on. And it was a great guy who was not in her practice area.

[00:06:28] And yet he gave her the confidence to go out and pitch business. So you find mentors in all different kinds of places. That's great. And that's a significant mentor relationship, it sounds like, when somebody gives you that confidence. Absolutely. And confidence is something that you can really aim to build yourself. You know, I think before you go into that new business pitch, if you are nervous, you need to write down,

[00:06:52] here are the 10 accomplishments that I've had so far in my career, or even three, just to remind yourself, you know, of the reality that you deserve to be in the room, that you've been invited in, and so you deserve that spot. That's something that's very important. And then there are various grounding exercises I talk about in the book. I spoke to psychologists about what do you do when you're nervous? How can you calm yourself before an actual meeting?

[00:07:21] And there are methods to do that. Well, that's great. And so let me ask you then, with what we're talking about here, that sounds a lot like imposter syndrome. Is that how you call it? Is that what you call it in the book? Do you address that specifically within your book? I do. And I think imposter syndrome is something that everyone has. I don't think it's a female thing. I think it's a people thing. I've met CEOs who are very successful, who have it. At some time in your life, you always wonder, do I deserve to be in this room?

[00:07:51] But my feeling is there's so many great tools to increase our confidence, to raise our awareness of what we're capable of doing. And then we just need to take that risk. Now, we're pretty risk averse, as you know, but I think it is important to take a risk when you are developing business and not be afraid of asking someone for business, whether it's by asking them, can I help you or can I support you in some way? But I think taking that risk is vital.

[00:08:21] I think that's great. The way I've always looked at the mental aspect of client development, or at least for myself, is these are the tools and the tool belt. Like you talked about grounding exercises. For me, I would always replay and pre-play. I would replay similar scenarios where I was in the meeting, I got the account, and then I'd close my eyes and imagine myself doing the same thing. Is that what you're talking about here? Or is that a little bit too kind of, I don't know what you call it, too weird? No, it's not too weird or too woo-woo.

[00:08:50] There are lots of ways that you can lower your blood pressure, that you can calm down your vagus system, whether it's deep breathing exercises, whether it's feeling the ground beneath your feet and really, or the chair beneath yourself. There's certain ways of doing that to really calm yourself down and to concentrate on what it is that you need to concentrate on.

[00:09:16] So I think knowing those tools, knowing how they work is really very important. And again, like you said, it's just another tool in your tool chest. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, I like the fact that you called these different tools before. What are some of the other tools? You talked about having a plan. What are some of the other components that women in law and professional services should use in terms of building their book? That's a great question. I think women are particularly good at empathizing.

[00:09:45] Now, maybe that's gross generalization, but it's what I heard when I interviewed people and getting to really create relationships. And so one of the things I really do try to get women to do is think about their networks. Be very conscious of who you know and are you connecting with them on a regular basis? And do you have touch points with them? I think LinkedIn, as you know, is a great tool for doing that.

[00:10:09] At the end of every week, I look through my calendar and think, who did I meet this week who I'm not yet connected with on LinkedIn? And how do I send them a note to say, it was great speaking with you about XYZ. Let's connect. Those connections can be so helpful in so many different ways. And it's not just that first connection, that first degree of connection that matters, but it's also who knows them. Very often, business comes in through a secondary source.

[00:10:39] Someone asks a friend who they recommend and they'll find their way to you. So keeping that network robust and alive and having touch points with clients in between times, not just waiting until they're actually giving you business to be in touch with them, is so vital and so important. That's great. So this is really good. And I like the fact that you started with empathizing.

[00:11:03] Because I think that is where I think a lot of women, like you mentioned, I think they do have a competitive advantage over men because of that. And I know whenever I'm talking with a female partner that's thinking about making a move or a male partner that's thinking about making a move, I know that seeing this movie so many times, there's going to be fewer problems with the process with the female partner than there will be with the male partner. It's just, I don't know why that is.

[00:11:28] I know that when they tell me they have a $4 million book, it's a $4 million book, not a $2 million book. And so I've found that I think women do have a competitive advantage over men and really building that trust. And you know this, people like to do business with those who fill in the blank. They know, like, and trust. And I think when you started with the word empathize, I think that can be used as a tool that women can use to really build those connections, maintain those relationships.

[00:11:58] And I like the fact that you mentioned having multiple touch points, give people a reason to stay connected with you, even when they're not going to buy anything from you. I think that's really good. Are there any examples? Have you seen people do this in person? People that you say, wow, she is a fantastic ringmaker and she's always out there. She's always connecting. Are there any people that you've seen have actually done this before, Deborah? Oh, absolutely.

[00:12:29] She's always out there. She's always out there. She's always out there. She's always out there. She's always out there. And so whenever she's in town where there's a client, she'll say, do you want to come join me for a walk in the morning? And she walks with clients. She walks with prospects. She walks with friends. And she stays in touch with them that way. She also will send them a photograph if she thinks of them on one of her walks or if she sees something that might interest them. So there are lots of different ways of staying in touch with people.

[00:12:58] There was a wonderful woman that I spoke with who has a great matrimonial practice. And what she does, which I think is great, her name is Stacey Phillips, is she has dinner parties quite regularly. And she's not just inviting her current clients or referral sources, but she's inviting other interesting people. And she loves doing it. So I think finding the things that you love and seeing if you can use those as a way of staying in touch with people can be one way of doing it.

[00:13:28] Another is just sending someone a note saying, I was thinking about you. How are you doing with XYZ? Or remembering someone's birthday. Those things really do count. You know, someone wants to know that they're hiring a lawyer who cares about them as a person, not just as a cash register. Wow. That's interesting. I mean, that's interesting. And I know it's truly effective. And I think those are things that somebody could take and build as part of their business plan. Just the things that you mentioned.

[00:13:57] Find something that you're interested in and use that as a way to connect with other people. There's probably about 100 different ways somebody could do that. So that's interesting. So what are some of the other tools you've talked about having a plan? The grounding exercises that you mentioned, empathizing. And we also touched on building a network with real tactical ways on how to do that. What are some other tools in the tool belt, Debra, that you talk about in your book? Well, I think, and we've read about this in books like Atomic Habit.

[00:14:23] But I think having habits really does make a difference. Or having a system, even if it's not a habit yet. So for instance, there are people who have systems that, you know, on Friday mornings, they write thank you notes to the people they met where they think, what do I need to follow up with on these clients? There's a lawyer I used to work with who kept a list of his 10 clients and 10 biggest prospects on his desk. He used to look at that all the time.

[00:14:49] I spoke with a great woman, Julie Spinelli, who has a fantastic practice. She's based in Paris, but she's a leading international arbitration lawyer. And Julie says, every two weeks, I'm going to go on LinkedIn and post. I'm going to either put an original piece of content or I'll comment on what someone else is doing. Now, occasionally she may miss it. You know, a week might go by that she's not able to do it.

[00:15:16] And so instead of two weeks, it takes her three weeks and that's okay. But I think having systems and having habits really does make a difference. It's like going to the gym. You know, it gets easier once you've made it a habit. Yeah, yeah. So what are the pitfalls and the common areas that people might really stumble in, especially women lawyers, people that you talk about in your book? What are some of the common pitfalls they might have in terms of building a practice?

[00:15:43] Oh, I think believing that it's just going to happen, that if they do their work and do it really well, that they're going to build a practice just by reputation. I think that can happen if, for instance, you're working with other partners and other lawyers who are sending you business. But that's less likely to happen today when other people are marketing.

[00:16:04] So I think being the good girl and just kind of doing great work, but keeping your head to the grindstone and not networking with people is not a good thing to do. And I think a lot of people fall into that. Another mistake I see people making all the time is that they might think there's one way of being a business developer. They see, you know, Bob, who's great, who's going out for lunch every day and dinner every day with clients.

[00:16:32] And they probably think, I can't do that. You know, I'm just not going to be a business developer. I'm just going to be the grinder and get my work done. But there are so many different ways of developing business and you need to find what's authentic to you. I know, again, books on various systems that you can put into place. And I don't think there's one type of rainmaker. I don't think you can say that everyone needs to be a certain type.

[00:17:01] I think particularly for women, they have to find what feels authentic to them, what feels right to them and develop their expertise while they're doing that. That's great. That's great. And what I'm curious about is the research that you did to write this book. Tell me a little bit about that, Deborah. Oh, it was so much fun. I had a great time. I interviewed 60 women rainmakers from South Africa, from Asia, from Europe, a lot from the United States.

[00:17:31] And, you know, learned quite a big deal from them. Some of them were people that I knew, for instance, through the International Bar Association or through working at Krivaath or Deba Voice. And I stayed in touch with them for years. But others, I would say, who do you recommend? Who do you know who's a really great rainmaker? And then I'd have a conversation with them. And it was fantastic. You know, everyone was so different. But there were common themes.

[00:17:58] There were themes of empathy, expertise, and real understanding of the process. Those were the women who were really super successful. That's great. And so we can put that in a bottle then. And people can, you know, that's their solution right there. I really love that. Because I've read a lot of books. We've had a lot of guests on the show, over 280 guests. Probably half of those are authors. And I don't think there's been a book written just to women professionals in business development.

[00:18:28] So I think this is going to be a wildly successful book for you, Debra, to bring it to the market. And is there anything else, any other lessons that you think would be important for people to know based on your research? Well, you know, all of these women were great listeners. They really paid attention to the questions that I was asking and really thought about them. And when I spoke to them about the skills that they had with clients, empathy again came up.

[00:18:55] And they said, you really have to not only know your client's business and produce great work, but you really have to know what makes them tick. You really have to know what's on their mind and what they're doing and what their concerns are on a daily basis and how their teams operate. So I think they are great listeners. That's great. So let's kind of paint a picture of the vision. Let's say there's a female attorney probably in the middle part of her career.

[00:19:21] Maybe she's been promoted to partner two years ago and she might be in somebody else's shadow. I see this a lot. How big is your book? Well, not even half a million yet. If somebody follows the formula that you share in your book, let's kind of paint the vision. Let's look five, 10 years from now. What can that person expect to achieve if they follow this template that you share with us? You know, it depends on the person.

[00:19:48] I think that they can create a practice that they love. I mean, that's the goal. You know, finding something that you absolutely adore doing, that you want to wake up in the morning and go to work. But that also makes economic sense. That is an area that's growing and that your firm will support if you're with a firm. So I tend to think of those things fitting into a Venn diagram.

[00:20:11] You know, finding those things that you love that really mean a great deal to you that you enjoy and seeing what makes economic sense. And then finding where those cross over. But I think you really can find something that you love and enjoy that makes economic sense. And usually, if you really enjoy what you're doing, you end up making money. So I think you get a double benefit there. And I like the fact that you led with creative practice that you love.

[00:20:39] Because I think that contributes to mental health, which leads to good physical health, which leads to you being able to put the energy into building the practice. And I think if we focus just on creating that practice that you love. And you didn't say, well, what can they expect? Seven-figure, you know, income. I think that's kind of the byproduct. And what I've found, because each year when I'm recruiting partners in big firms, I'm talking with maybe about a thousand new people a year. And it's hardly ever about the money.

[00:21:08] It is, but it's really not. It's more about the meaning. About if they can build a practice that they love. What you mentioned, your firm will support it. The money is going to take care of itself over time. As long as they're with the right kind of firm that has the right kind of economic model, that's kind of a given. But I love the fact that you said, create a practice that you love. And thank you for sharing that. I think painting that vision of this is what it can be like.

[00:21:32] And one thing I'll even do when I'm asking partners, I'll say, let's say you're going to bed Sunday night and you're excited about Monday morning. What's different? What's different? And it might not be at your firm. It might be at a different firm. But just the emotional context. You're excited about going to work Monday morning. So anyways, I could go on and on about that and how that ties in with all the things that you're sharing, Debra. And so let me ask you this.

[00:21:56] If you could kind of summarize three action steps for a female attorney listening to this or professional services provider to really implement some of these ideas. What would be a good starting point in terms of three action steps, Debra? I think first carve out the time to give it some thought. We rarely give ourselves permission to think about these things. So sit down with a pad of paper, list those things that you love to do and also put together a little miniature plan for yourself.

[00:22:26] It should be one page handwritten. Here's what I want for my practice. And here's some potential ways that I can get there. So I think that would be the first thing. Take the time and write something down. I think second would be if you are a lawyer, whether you're in the U.S. or not, you know, get involved in LinkedIn. Make sure that your profile is optimized. Make sure that you're posting regularly. But at a bare minimum, make sure that you're connected to all those people that you once worked with.

[00:22:54] That's really very important. And I think the third is do something today. You know, you've heard our podcast and maybe that's a sign that you need to pick up the phone and call a potential client, ask them to lunch, call an existing client that you haven't heard from for a while. But if you do something today, that's a great first step. That's great, Debra. I like that. I like the fact when you talk about create a plan, make it handwritten. I've never heard that before.

[00:23:24] Why do you think that's important? You know, I think there is something about the brain-hand connection when you're writing something down. And having taught students for many years, I find that that does work because there's more thought and somehow I think it imprints on our brains. But I think it also commits you to doing something. That's great. Well, Debra, thank you for being on the Rainmaking Podcast again. And tell our listeners, what are your offerings? What do you have? What do you do that you'd like people to know about?

[00:23:53] That's so kind. Well, I do speak at retreats of all kinds, whether it's business development specific or partner retreats when I'm not writing. And I work with clients. There are a number of regular clients that I have that are incredible that I help them with their marketing, their marketing departments, their business development programs. I help create business development programs.

[00:24:17] And then my small sub practice, but I love this, is I coach about eight lawyers every year that I take on as private clients. But that's about it, those three things. And I love it. I took my own advice. You know, I thought about the things that I really love to do. And I suggest that everyone do that. Well, that's great, Debra. Thank you for sharing your new book with us today. Thank you for being here on the show. And I look forward to having you back here on the show later again this year, Debra.

[00:24:47] Scott, my pleasure. Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast. For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.