TRP 260: How to Lead with Trust with Tony Gray

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love. You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love. Thank you for joining me on the show. Ladies and gentlemen, you've got a really good guest to listen to today. His name is Tony Gray, and our topic title is Leading with Trust.

[00:00:37] Now, what's interesting and different about Tony, he's written a book called The Business Development Body of Knowledge. He's the creator of the Global Business Development Association's Business Development Professional Certification. And the way he approaches teaching business development is something I've never heard of before. He approaches it with a scientific basis for why things happen in terms of why people respond when we're building trust.

[00:01:03] It's an innovative way to describe how we build trust with our prospective clients. I think you're going to get some fantastic ideas from my conversation with Tony today. Make sure you connect with him on LinkedIn. On the show notes, we're putting his contact info. You can connect with him directly. Also, a link where you can get a copy of The Business Development Body of Knowledge on Amazon. That's a book I've read. I'd highly recommend it. It's really interesting. And it goes deeper and deeper into your learning of business development.

[00:01:32] And I always believe this, that there's more that I don't know about business development than what I do know. And I want to continue to learn. And I know you do too, which is why you listen to this show. And I thank you for that. As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal intelligence suite of products, Firmscape and Leopard BI. Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard. And now here's my conversation with our guest, Tony Gray. Thanks for listening.

[00:02:00] Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rainmaking Podcast. Our guest today is Tony Gray, and we're talking about how to lead with trust. Tony, thanks for joining me on the show. Thanks for having me on the show, Scott. Really appreciate it. Absolutely. And I like this topic a lot because this is what it's all about when we're serving clients and when we're getting clients. But let me ask you this. How do you think people can go to build trust with those in our world in terms of client development?

[00:02:28] Yeah, great question. You know, when I started writing the Business Development Body of Knowledge, that took me on a three year journey where I really wanted to get to the crux, you know, the first principles of successful business development. And in the writing process, I probably had about 2000 pages of notes. I read tons of books on business development, sales, marketing, all aspects of the customer journey, the top articles, the scientific papers,

[00:02:57] because I wanted the Business Development Body of Knowledge to be very scientifically oriented as opposed to anecdotally oriented. You know, you see a lot of these books out there and it's, well, do this. And is there a reason why? Well, no, just because I, you know, I think it's a great idea and it's worked for me on the bus. Well, that's lovely. But, you know, let's look at some hard facts and figures. And what I was just fascinated because everything distilled down to this first principle.

[00:03:24] And the first principle is trust. And I know we talk about trust. Everybody uses trust these days. You know, I was talking to my wife the other day. And she's like, is it you or me? But everybody seems to be using trust in their discussions. And, you know, trust is actually proven by neuroscience to be three separate elements. Trust is purpose, empathy and truth.

[00:03:53] Okay. And these actually trigger brain chemicals of oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin. When you conduct a truthful transaction with another individual, meaning I will give you A if you give me B in return, then that triggers the brain chemical of oxytocin. Wow.

[00:04:20] And that brain chemical, then the more you conduct these truthful transaction that then stimulates dopamine. Well, dopamine is actually what drives the brain sense of purpose. And so you have truth, you have purpose. And then the more you conduct these transactions, the individuals feel more trusted.

[00:04:45] Both sides feel more trusted and showing a sense of empathy towards one another. And so it's this brain chemical cocktail that's created by these truthful transactions that over time, you know, we're aligned on a sense of purpose. We're engaging with each other truthfully and we're doing it in such a way that's empathetic.

[00:05:09] All of that, it bundled together is what creates this mysterious thing we call trust. And you can't do any deal in the world without even an ounce of trust. Yeah. Wow. I had no idea it went that deep. And I really respect the research that you did on all this. So my next question for you is which of these is most important? Truth, empathy, purpose, or how would you describe that? Or is it like a three-legged stool where they have equal weight?

[00:05:37] Yeah, I think purpose is fundamental. It is kind of the bedrock. Because if you are not aligned with a prospect and you engage them, but then why are you talking? Okay. If they want to get from point A to point B and you cannot get them to point B, stop. Okay. Because your product is point B, you know, point C, and they want to get to point B. Okay. The stop right there demonstrates some empathy.

[00:06:03] Be truthful and tell them, look, my product only goes to point C. You want to get to point B. So I'm just going to be truthful here. My product isn't for you. Congratulations. You just stimulated a ton of oxytocin in their brain. Empathy would be to say, hey, look, I understand you need to get to point B. Let me introduce you to somebody who I think can get you there. Wow. You've just delivered so much value, so much trust that who knows, you may even get a referral from that person later on.

[00:06:32] Hey, look, I talked to this individual at this firm. They couldn't get me to point B, but they were so truthful. They were so for it and they were so empathetic. They actually introduced me to a couple of people that did actually help me out. Here, go talk to him. This is interesting. And I want to kind of go back a little bit on definitions of purpose and truth and maybe a definition on empathy to make sure I understand what you mean by that. But just the other day, there was a candidate I was talking to because I recruit corporate and finance partners. He wasn't interested.

[00:07:02] I even told him, I don't even think you should leave your firm. I think you should stay from what you told me. And it was all of a sudden the walls came down and he actually gave me five referrals without me asking and even offered to reach out to them for me. And so what you're saying here, I saw it with my own eyes. Now I know why. So, so tell me this, when you say purpose, how would you define that? What does that mean exactly, Tony? Yeah. Purpose is alignment on an ultimate goal.

[00:07:31] And you know, it's important to understand both the extrinsic goals of the individual and individual prospect. They're extrinsic goals. Okay. These are the things they publish, let's say in a request for proposal or they're telling everybody what their need is. Then it's important to also understand their intrinsic requirements, their intrinsic needs, their intrinsic goals, their purpose. Those are the things they rarely tell other people.

[00:07:57] That's where, when you're empathetic, you ask the right questions that tease out those inner fears, those inner thoughts. And then it's, wow. That's what will set you apart from the competition. Not just from a perspective of understanding what the prospect really wants and they feel heard, they feel seen, but those are the things that the competitors never know about.

[00:08:23] And when you provide your proposal, the prospect will get a sense of, wow, this, they really, they really get me, they really get us, they get our firm. Let's go with them. And then that leads to empathy. Is that correct? Kind of, is that how it goes? Yeah. And Scott, so the empathy component there is just kind of built into, look, I understand your purpose. Now let me help you get there. Okay.

[00:08:50] Let me make sure that I understand that I heard you properly. Okay. You said X. All right. Now, when you said that, did you mean this or did you mean that? And having that kind of empathetic understanding. And it's important when we talk about empathy, Scott, and I'm glad that you're asking about empathy because there are two types of empathy. There is a cognitive empathy. Okay.

[00:09:16] Where cognitive empathy means I logically, I analytically understand what you're saying. Then there is sympathy. Now, sympathy is different. Sympathy means I feel your emotions. I share your emotions. I've been there before. And there is scientific proof, evidence that shows if you are sympathetic in a negotiation

[00:09:42] and an engagement with a prospect, your probability of success is actually less than if you demonstrate cognitive empathy. And so it's important to understand this difference between empathy and sympathy and cognitive empathy and being logical and analytical. It's important to have that distinction in your discussion with your prospects if you want a higher probability of success. That's interesting. This rabbit hole goes pretty deep, doesn't it, Tony? It does.

[00:10:11] And you know, it's interesting you use the word rabbit hole because about a year and a half into my effort of writing the business development body of knowledge, I was at a point where it was just so complex. Trying to distill everything down into these first principles was a monolithic effort. And so you can go down these rabbit holes, but don't worry. I've already been there myself and I think I've found the way. I think I've found your way out of that rabbit hole, Scott.

[00:10:39] Well, I appreciate you doing the hard work on this research so that people like me can just learn it and apply it. So thank you for that. And let me let me kind of get into what truth means. How would you describe that within the model of what we're talking about within this context? Well, for a lot of your listeners, I think they're pretty, pretty solid understanding of what truth is, you know, from a legal standpoint.

[00:11:02] And, you know, I think it's also, you know, not just what we understand legally is the truth, but also having that candid discussion, kind of like what you did with your candidate. You gave them the candid truth in your perspective and your understanding of things. And it's, you know, there's something called the challenger sales method.

[00:11:27] There are, you know, methods of sales where you provoke the prospect into not an emotional anger state, but you provoke them from a thought standpoint, a pattern interrupt, if you will, where they may have a thought process that is ingrained for them, but you approach them with a different angle that they've never thought of before, a blind spot, if you will.

[00:11:52] Having that kind of truthful, candid discussion with them of, you know, as you did with your candidate of, look, I'm not the right person for you, but let me point you in the right direction. That's a candid, truthful discussion. Did you have to disclose that? Did somebody ask you a fact of whether or not, you know, to give you a factual statement? No, but you had, some people call it integrity. You had the integrity. You had the truthful perspective to say, I'm not the right person.

[00:12:21] You know, another example would be engaging with a prospect and telling them, okay, I think you're wrong. And I respectfully tell you that, but here's the reason why I think you may be wrong. Here is the blind spot I see. Could be wrong here, but, you know, let's talk through that. My experience is that prospects love that kind of candid, truthful discussion. Yeah, absolutely right.

[00:12:48] How do we get the courage up to having that kind of truthful conversation with them? Oh boy. You know, well, you could have it beat into you like you and I did at the Naval Academy. Right. Through a lot of trials and tribulations in that crucible of stress. But it's muscle memory. It's reps and sets. It's practicing, you know? And the first step is realizing you're in a scenario where you're thinking to yourself, yeah, this isn't right.

[00:13:18] This isn't, I'm not the right person or what the prospect is telling me just isn't right. Now, some people, we're trained as humans in modern society to be respectful of other people's opinions. And we're also, you know, kind of trained through society to present our best self. And you have to build that muscle memory to say, okay, I know how I've been socially trained to respond here.

[00:13:46] But what they just told me, I think is really wrong. I need to tell them the right answer. I need to candidly share my perspective with them. That's tough. That's tough. Especially if this is a huge prospect for you to run that kind of risk. But I think when you do that, you may be very surprised. And, you know, if you have that candid discussion, who knows? It may not work out the right way for you. But you know what? Maybe that relationship was never meant to be.

[00:14:16] Exactly right. That relationship, you know, you build that relationship over a year and a half and you realize that this individual is a flaming narcissist and is the worst customer you could ever have because they're actually costing you money. Or they're costing you opportunity costs of stress and using so much of your time, you're underserving your other clients. So having those candid discussions early can probably diffuse a lot of potential issues later on in the relationship.

[00:14:45] And again, it just comes down to muscle memory. You have to just realize you're in that moment and then do it. That's great, Tony. Yeah. Thank you. So let me ask you this then. What are some of the pitfalls that people stumble into where they're really trying to build those client relationships and they just haven't gotten to that level of trust with them? What are some of the pitfalls or recommendations for people in that regard? Yeah. Trust building is a process.

[00:15:13] And that's really what the business development body of knowledge runs people through is that proven process based on science that goes throughout the customer journey from the time that they have awareness of the problem, of your solution, of your brand. And then all the way through the prospecting phases, brand activation. And then you move into conversion, which is the sales phase we all talk about in negotiations.

[00:15:41] And then you go into the contract award and onboarding them as a client and going through the customer success phase. And then ultimately to that final phase where it's the growth phase. And growth phase, I mean, they, your clients become your strongest advocates.

[00:16:00] The business development body of knowledge defines business development as customer and community advocacy that creates corporate growth. It's a very short, very simple definition. And I think a lot of your listeners as attorneys will really understand and appreciate the fact that we talk about advocacy as advocates. So customer and community advocacy that creates corporate growth. It's a double entendre.

[00:16:30] It's obvious in the sense that, yes, you as the service provider want to and need to advocate for your customers. Okay. But the double entendre is that when you advocate for your customers, you advocate for your community. They in turn will advocate for you, provide you referrals.

[00:16:50] And we all know referrals are the highest converting business development tactic out of cold calls and cold emails and warm emails and social selling. All of those, all of those, those are only, you know, half a percentage point. Those are probably 3% at most conversion rate, maybe up to 10%. Conversion on referrals, over 50% conversion rate on referrals. Okay. Okay.

[00:17:18] And for a lot of your listeners, they build their businesses and practices through referrals. So when I talk about that business development process, always keep that end goal in mind. The end goal is to create raving fans, your clients who are out there doing business development for you. And it becomes an exponential process, right? Sales is linear. If you double the number of cold calls, you'll double the number of meetings. You double the number, and marketing is linear. You double the number of ads, you'll double the number of impressions and simple math.

[00:17:48] When you do business development, it's exponential, right? Because if I sell to two customers and they become my clients, and those two customers become raving fans, they in turn tell two of their friends who become two more of your customers. Those two then tell two more. And it becomes this exponential, this organically growing exponential growth that is massively powerful. Tremendous economies of scale.

[00:18:16] So when you follow a repeatable process through prospecting and then customer success, and you understand that business development never stops. Business development is not just prospecting. You need to be in a business development mindset in customer success after you've successfully sold to them and you're supporting them. It's constantly engaging them, constantly delivering value, and understanding how to ask for the referrals.

[00:18:45] You know, this is a really deep concept here. If we parse it into different areas, we've got sales, we've got marketing, and we've got business development. I've never thought of it in my entire life until today, the way you set that up that way, Tony. It's just interesting to me. And so if people are in that area of business development, you know, you've got one plus one is two, one plus one is two, but we've got one plus one is 26.

[00:19:12] And if you ever want to solve any problem, one of the things I do, I teach my kids this also. My daughter's like, I know, Dad, for every problem there's always a solution because that's what we say in our home quite a bit. I say, if we want to solve the problem, let's first go to principles and premises that govern success and start there. And from that, we will find solutions. And one of the solutions, one of the principles is leverage, scale. Anything you can do, hence why we produce podcasts, why we go into authorship.

[00:19:41] I write the article once, and it's on LinkedIn, and a thousand people read it. That's a leverageable opportunity. And I think with the concept, not of sales, not of marketing, but of business development, we take that concept into a tangible concept. That's a leverageable, leverageable idea. And what you said to me just now, Tony, and I've learned probably about three or four, more like five or six things in the last 20 minutes that I've just never even thought of or heard of before.

[00:20:10] So thank you for doing the work and the research on that and bringing that to me on a silver platter and to all of us listening on the show. So if we focus on really becoming experts in business development, then my sense is that we're going to seek deep wisdom and, in fact, intellectual satisfaction because we're deeply learning about how do we build purpose, empathy, and truth with our prospects. So that's not a question, that's a comment.

[00:20:40] So thank you for that. How can we grow then in growing in our wisdom of business development? Tell me about that kind of on a grander scale. How can we really grow in that area as we lead with trust? Yeah, well, get my book, The Business Development Body of Knowledge. And for everybody listening, we're going to put that on the show notes. And we'll talk about that in a second. We're going to put that on the show notes. But besides your book, what are other ways, you know, journaling, documenting, what have you seen that really helps us to sharpen our skills? In business development.

[00:21:09] Well, first step is competency. And that's what the book is designed to do, is give you competency across the entire business development spectrum. And once you have that competency, you know, there's a huge amount of content on LinkedIn and high quality content about business development on LinkedIn. But it's easy to get overwhelmed. Because what happens is it's kind of like walking in the desert. You start to pick up all these different tactics. And then three months later, you realize, okay, I'm a little lost here.

[00:21:39] I think I might be actually right where I started. And I don't have context. So that as I consume all of this content out there, I don't understand where it fits. So I think that was a big part of the book, too, is give folks an understanding of the context. What is business development? And go through each phase of the customer journey and what are the key components of that. So I think that's important. First of all, start with context. Start with that roadmap understanding.

[00:22:08] Then start to, you know, pick up the content because things are evolving so quickly. Let's just take LinkedIn, for example. I know it's a very powerful tool. I'm on LinkedIn every day because it's tremendously powerful for... I'm in the professional services space. And that's where my ideal customer profile is. You know, that ICP, that ideal customer target is there on LinkedIn. And that's where I engage on a regular basis.

[00:22:35] So with that context, you can consume the content. You can start to now create the content all within this common context. And then, you know, as practitioners, you know, you're starting to implement those tactics that you're learning, whether it's on LinkedIn or whether you learned in the context of the business development body of knowledge within that framework.

[00:23:00] And so you always kind of have that touchstone that you can go back to and go, okay, I just learned something new or I tried something new, but how does it fit into everything? Okay, great. All right. Now I know where it fits in to my overall kit bag of capabilities. Does that make sense? It does. And thank you for elaborating on that, Tony. So let me ask you this, as we bring things to a close, if we could kind of summarize this into three action steps.

[00:23:27] People can take step one, step two, step three, into really learning how we can lead with trust. How would you summarize that, Tony? Yeah, I think if you use this universal compass of trust as purpose plus empathy plus truth, I think if you always have that compass in your hip pocket, when you're engaging with prospects and customers, you'll always be able to find true north.

[00:23:54] And outside of the business world, even in personal relationships, when there's conflict, I think if you break it down and you start to get a sense of, okay, are we aligned on purpose? Yes. Okay, great. Am I being truthful? Are they being truthful? Okay, let's figure that part out. And then let me engage, let us both engage in an empathetic cognitive empathy, an empathetic man. You know, I heard what you said. I understand how there is some truth in what you said.

[00:24:23] This is what I can do to improve. This is what we can do to improve. And here's the solution moving forward. And if you always have that universal compass of trust equals purpose plus empathy and truth, I think you'll be able to use it not just in business and a lot of relationships moving forward to find true north. That's great. And so how would we look at step two and step three? We've got step one, universal compass. What would be some other steps to going forward in this area? Yeah.

[00:24:54] Step two is getting that context of understanding. You know, so often we find a tactic that works and then we don't know what to do next. Yeah. Okay, great. I nailed cold calls. I'm an expert at cold calls. Okay, great. But I'm not very good at converting on the meetings when I finally get a meeting from those cold calls. All right. I need to do a little bit more work there because that's the next step in the process.

[00:25:19] And having that contextual understanding of how all the machinery works and where you may be weakest, then you can really start to optimize your skills. That's a smart way to do it. And what would be step three in our process here, Tony? And step three, you know, once you have that competency, that contextual competency is to build the proficiency. You know, the proficiency is getting in those reps and sets.

[00:25:47] It's, you know, making, it's having those tough discussions when tough discussions have maybe been historically difficult for you. You know, and it could be, you know, how you were raised is, you know, don't bring up issues that could cause conflict, you know. But the more you do it, the more you're truthful, the more you're candid and have those tough discussions, the better you get at it.

[00:26:12] And so you have to have that proficiency so that you can really excel at that competency that you've already established. That's great, Tony. This is really good. And I appreciate you for being here and sharing this wisdom today and just being generous with that. And tell us about what you do, what you have that you think our listeners could benefit from. Tell me more about the Global Business Development Association also. Oh, thank you for that, Scott. And, you know, Global Business Development Association, we're not like a lot of other trade associations.

[00:26:41] We're a nonprofit, but we don't do organizational meetings, in-person meetings, conferences, and things of that nature. What we are is an academic organization. It's all centered around the business development body of knowledge. And we all move forward together as a common profession, agreeing that, yes, this is our common body of knowledge. I invite your guests and listeners to read the book.

[00:27:07] If they see something they disagree with and they have scientific evidence to prove me wrong, please break my book. Tell me. Because that will make the entire profession that much stronger. I will change the book. And with the book, we also have a certification. So, nothing like this existed before I wrote it. I was a project management professional. I'm sure, you know, a lot of your listeners, they passed the bar exam. This is nothing like the bar exam. This is an open book exam, by the way.

[00:27:38] Unlimited attempts to pass it. So, this is nothing like the bar. But, you know, I think actually what's funny is one gentleman told me he's a fellow business developer. He goes, so you're telling me this is an online open book exam for business developers? And he said, well, at least you should have people drink two bourbons when they take the exam just to make their real true business developers. So, yeah, that's what our organization does. Without the drinking, by the way. That's great.

[00:28:05] This is not a sponsored commercial for any kind of alcoholic beverage. Yeah, this is great. Well, I'm interested in learning more. We're going to put that link on the show notes as well as for the book. And for everybody listening, go to the show notes wherever you hear the podcast and you'll be able to connect with Tony directly. We'll put his LinkedIn profile there as well. Tony, thanks again for being a great guest. I'd love to have you on in the future. And thanks for teaching all of us so much today. Oh, Scott, thank you for having me on the show. It's been fun.

[00:28:34] Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast. For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.