TRP 259: [Legal] Think like a lawyer: Act like an Entrepreneur with Steve Seckler

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love. Thanks for joining me on the show. I'm excited that you're here. Now, this is our Tuesday episode, which focuses just for those people in the legal profession. Now, why did I do that on Tuesday?

[00:00:37] Well, we got a lot of people that talk to professional services providers in any industry and then some that are real niched. And so I decided that every Thursday, I'm interviewing experts and guests on general business development that can impact anybody in professional services. But sometimes Tuesdays, not every Tuesday, not yet. Wait, though, maybe we'll get to where we're doing two shows a week, although I can't imagine having the kind of time to do that.

[00:01:01] But anyways, sometimes Tuesdays, I'm interviewing guests that work exclusively in the legal profession. Why is that? Because it's something I'm very fond of. I appreciate the business that I get from my clients and the trust I get from the candidates in my work as a legal recruiter recruiting corporate and finance partners. I love it. I absolutely love the work and I love the legal industry. So I wanted to go a little bit deeper in that. And that's why I decided to launch the Tuesday show.

[00:01:27] So our guest today, I'm excited about him because of the impact that I think he's going to have on you. If you have ever had an aversion to sales, but you know you've got to get over that hump, how do you do that as an attorney? Because you know you have to get work. This show is going to give you some great ideas. Our guest is Stephen Seckler. Now, Stephen is a professional coach focusing on business development and career management for attorneys.

[00:01:54] He's written a book called Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur, published by the American Bar Association. I've read the book. This book has some practical strategies that can help you build successful practices by overcoming that aversion to sales. He gives you some personal experience stories, some anecdotes, a lot of humor, and a really good format that's going to help it make it work for you.

[00:02:19] We put the link for that book on the show notes, so make sure you go there, as well as all of the other information and ways that you can connect with Stephen. And by the way, he's been writing a blog since 2005. We put the link for that on the show notes, as well as his own podcast, Council to Council, on there as well. As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions' Legal Intelligence suite of products, Firmscape and Leopard BI. Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard.

[00:02:47] And now here's my conversation with Steve Seckler. Thanks for listening. Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rainmaking Podcast. Our guest today is Steve Seckler, and our topic is Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur. Steve, thanks for joining me on the podcast today. Scott, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely right. I'm glad you're here today talking about the book that you wrote, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur.

[00:03:16] So, Steve, why is this an important topic to lawyers in terms of thinking like a lawyer and acting like an entrepreneur? So let me start off by saying that I wrote this book never thinking I would ever write a book because I do think like a lawyer myself. Like many lawyers, I'm skeptical, I'm risk averse, I have an aversion to selling. And it's been a long journey in getting more comfortable with all of those things.

[00:03:43] So I wrote the book because it's really been my journey to figuring out how to do these things in a way that feels authentic and comfortable for me. And the reason why it's important is because, as you talk about on your show all the time, lawyers who are in private practice are much happier if they build their own practice. And so these are tools to help the skeptical lawyer figure out ways that are comfortable to start being more entrepreneurial without having to think in an entrepreneurial way.

[00:04:13] That's great. I love that. And I liked how you gave us a tangible kinesthetic example. These are tools. These are tools that you're going to give them that can help them with that. Because you're right, they have to build something. They didn't say, I got into law because I want to be in sales, but yet they have to do client development, earn trust, get the work, et cetera, et cetera. So kind of help me understand some of the more important tools that you've written about here in the book.

[00:04:40] What are the ones that you think add the most value to people that are looking to change how they think in growing their practice? There's a whole section on listening skills. I think that's where we really fall down as lawyers. We really pride ourselves in showing how smart we are. And when you're presenting information before a tribunal, when you're having a conversation with counsel on the other side of a deal, you need to be articulate. You need to be able to express your position. But building a practice is different.

[00:05:10] It's about relationship building. You had Jason Levin on, I believe, the last episode I just watched. He was great. And he talks about tapping into your network, including dormant contacts that you haven't been in contact with in a long time. And relationship building is not about just what we say and what we talk about. It's about also being a great listener and hearing what the other person has to say and trying to find ways to be helpful.

[00:05:35] And that's a different skill set than we need for most of what we're doing as a practicing lawyer or for some of what we're doing. I would actually argue that listening skills are very important also if you're going to be an effective lawyer. But they're particularly important when we are trying to build relationships, which are the foundation of building a practice. And so that's what I really think people should focus in on in this book in part. So tell me about that for a little bit. Let's say you're coaching somebody on the issue of listening skills.

[00:06:04] How can they actually get better at that? For starters, you can go to networking meetings, have conversations and be prepared. You're looking for ways to connect with people that probably aren't about the subject matter or the content that you're expert in. You're trying to find common areas of interest, common areas of background. And doing a little research before you get out and meet with somebody is really helpful.

[00:06:30] So there are some checklists in the book that talk about what are the things that you might want to find out about people so that you could find ways to connect. And that's kind of like the foundation of listening. It's looking for areas of commonality and looking for pain points also. That's great. So another chapter that you wrote about in your book, you talk about networking and you talk about attending live conferences. Is that still a thing? Tell me about that.

[00:06:55] During the pandemic, a lot of us got very used to doing things virtually and not showing up in public. And I had kind of an epiphany, an eye opener. So I used to like to go to live events. Like a lot of lawyers, I wouldn't necessarily feel very comfortable walking into a big room. But going to a live event can be a way to have sort of organic, unplanned interactions with people. I think you said that you and I actually shook hands a couple of years ago at the NELP meeting.

[00:07:24] So at that meeting, that's when I really had an epiphany. I went to that meeting and I picked up one of my best clients ever. And the way I picked up that client was I had planned to meet somebody for lunch who I knew through my network, through other channels. And I showed up at the conference and we sat down for lunch. And then somebody was walking by from an Amlaw 50 firm. She made an introduction.

[00:07:47] And from that introduction, I became a member of a career advisory panel for a large Amlaw 50 firm. That wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been at that live event. That's great. I think when you're at those events, people expect business to be done. You're putting shrimp on a plate, talking to a stranger. What do you do? How long have you been there? Oh, we should talk. That sort of thing, right? Right. And there's some material in the book about how to get more comfortable at some of these live events.

[00:08:16] Lawyers are not that social as a general rule. I happen to be pretty social. But like a lot of lawyers, I don't, again, love going into a big room with lots of people there. So I like to have some structure before I go in. So there are some tools in the book to help you think in advance about how to get the most out of an event. So I try to break things down into sort of simple, bite-sized steps. And these are things that I didn't really know about when I graduated from law school. I mean, my father was a math professor. My mother was a school psychologist.

[00:08:45] And the message that I heard from my father growing up was that business people are operators. So I didn't graduate from law school thinking that business was a virtuous activity. It was only after I graduated from law school, started working for Massachusetts Continual Legal Education. This was in the late 80s. And saw the lawyers who were starting to really adopt marketing tools and techniques at a time when marketing was just really becoming a thing in the legal profession. And I saw how they did it in a way that was authentic and comfortable for them.

[00:09:15] And I started to realize, gee, I like building relationships. Maybe I could be good at this. This is not about selling used cars. This is about being helpful. I like that. I think that takes the pressure off. Don't you think so? Absolutely. Yeah. And in fact, for the younger lawyers that are listening to this, the best time to really get started is now. Because there's an expression in banking, the best time to ask for a loan is when you don't need one.

[00:09:41] So if you start cultivating the relationships, your friends from college, your friends from law school, and you're just making sure to keep track of them, getting to know them, those individuals are going to end up in places of influence where they may be able to buy your services or refer services to you. And so, again, the book is all about trying to break things down so they're not so intimidating. The title of the book is really very meta.

[00:10:06] It's really what I'm trying to say, and it's really what I've been trying to do my entire career, figure out for myself, and it's what I help my clients do. The thinking like a lawyer part is what our clients need us to do. They need us to be skeptical. They need us to be risk-averse. They want us to be very structured and orderly in terms of getting our deals done, in terms of moving cases towards settlement or getting cases ready for trial. Now, relationship building is much more open-ended, and it's not structured, and it's not the way we normally think as lawyers.

[00:10:36] So what I'm trying to say in this book is that don't worry about changing the way you think. You don't have to think like an entrepreneur, but start acting like one. And the book is my attempt to help lawyers start acting like entrepreneurs. That's great, Steve. I appreciate you elaborating on that. That makes a lot of sense. Let me go back to what you mentioned. You referenced COVID, that we all thought, well, let's just go virtual, no more face-to-face meetings. That's changed. But I think with COVID, we all went through something catastrophic all at the same time.

[00:11:06] And I remember, and you probably do as well, reaching out to people right after COVID and asking questions to strangers such as, are you safe? How are you? How are you?

[00:11:46] It's just about curious relationships.ации. So I'd like to say it, in the context of existing clients, how does that curiosity establish itself as something that's important for us? What does that mean exactly?

[00:12:11] Well, I'll come back to curiosity in a second, but let me say that I thought COVID was actually, you know, despite some of the terrible things that happened, was actually a great opportunity for us to express our humanity. It gave us opportunities to connect with people. How are you doing? How are your family members? And then also on Zoom, I started to learn things about people that I didn't even know about them, personal things. Like this one shows up, you see their picture on Zoom before they actually come live and they're holding a small child.

[00:12:40] Okay, this person is a grandparent. I didn't know that. You see a guitar in the background. This person plays guitar. So it gave us more opportunities to connect on a personal level. In terms of curiosity, the thing that's great about being a curious person, and if you go into business development with a healthy dose of curiosity, you can find ways that you can be helpful to people. Especially if you are a level two listener. I talk about different levels of listening in the book. Level one listeners are like this.

[00:13:10] So somebody says, or I say, my dog died. And then you say to me, oh, my dog died. You start talking about your dog. Level two listening is, you say, my dog died. And I say like, oh, wow, what happened? You know, how old was he? And then level three listening is, wow, you look really upset about that. This must have been really hard. I know that you really cared for Rover or whatever. Can't think of a good dog name right now.

[00:13:37] A lot of people name their dogs out of people names now. So if you're curious about people, you're going to find, and if you do level two listening in particular or level three, you're going to find out ways that people need help. And that help may not be your services. That help may not be even the services that people in your law firm can provide. It may be they're looking for a good accountant. It could be that they're looking for a painter. It could be that they're going on vacation. That's the way relationships are built.

[00:14:06] And that's, again, what I'm trying to communicate in this book. Ways that people can deepen their relationships. That's great. I like that. I like how you give structure to the different levels of listening because that's concrete. I can understand that. Let me ask you this. At one point in your book, you also talk about how important it is to be memorable. If you're not memorable, don't expect to be remembered. What does that mean?

[00:14:29] How would you define and give attributes of somebody that's memorable in a professional setting that we're trying to get to here? So there are a lot of dimensions to that. But the basic concept is this. I have a friend who does this presentation. He does marketing for tiny professional services firms. And he'll say, how many of you are going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 minutes? And, of course, nobody's going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 minutes. How many of you are going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 years?

[00:14:59] Now, as an aside, I recently learned that appliances don't last anywhere near as long because we did a major renovation on our house. But the answer to that is many people or probably most people. And so that's the issue with selling professional services. You don't know at what point between 15 minutes and 15 years from now that person is either going to have a need or hear of a need that you can meet. So what's important is that you want to find a way that people can remember you.

[00:15:27] Now, that's not about walking up to somebody and giving lots of elevator pitches in a big room and getting as many business cards as possible. Because that's not relationship building. That's just transactional. However, figuring out what is your niche. Like you've described your own recruiting niche as only focusing on corporate and I think you said bankruptcy? Finance. Finance. Yeah. Finance. Corporate and finance. Well, let me tell you, that really differentiates you as a bankruptcy lawyer.

[00:15:57] I know a ton of financial planners in this business networking group. I'm part of called Provisors. But there are some that have done a great job of differentiating themselves. They, one of them only, you know, works primarily with women who are divorced. Now, does that mean that those are their only clients? No, but they're known for that. And so when I meet somebody who's getting divorced and might need some help with a financial plan, that's the person I'm going to think of.

[00:16:24] The way to be memorable isn't just by what you do. It could also be, I have somebody in this networking group who, he's a patent lawyer, Tony Laurentiano, and he's just a goofball. You know, he runs his meetings in a really fun way. He calls his networking group Fun Club. And he'll have themed networking meetings like beach theme, you know, come dressed in beach clothes, beach attire. I have a client who makes cocktail mixes and body scrubs.

[00:16:53] So she's sort of known as the self-care person. She's an immigration lawyer. And so there are different ways to be remembered. And finding that way, and it doesn't have to be what you do. It could be who you are, personality, or it could be some interest that you have. That's going to help people remember you over time. Of course, that's a great idea. Yeah, of course, that's only the first step because relationship building has to take place over time and you have to find ways to stay top of mind. Tell me more about that. You said that's the first step.

[00:17:23] What should we think of in terms of being memorable with our clients beyond that? So let's say you meet somebody at a networking function. They seem like somebody you want to get to know. Maybe after that meeting, you'll send them a LinkedIn request. Maybe you'll reach out to them in a week or two and say, why don't we get together for coffee and talk more about ways that we can be helpful to each other? Maybe in three months, you'll send them an article. Maybe in six months, you'll invite them to a presentation you're doing.

[00:17:49] Maybe in a year, they'll be invited to the firm's holiday party. It's just finding ways to sort of have light touches so that people are still thinking about you so that your name comes up at that moment when the need is there or when they hear about a need somebody has. That's great. I like that. That's a real tangible way to explain that. Let me ask you this question then, Steve, in terms of pitfalls, things that lawyers need to be careful of so that they don't reach their potential

[00:18:18] in building their name, building their practice. What do you think are some of the biggest pitfalls they should watch out for? Well, usually what I say when I'm asked this question is saving marketing for a rainy day and failing to follow up. But actually, let me add before that, since you brought up the issue about being memorable, it's not having some kind of a niche. You can't market everything. You can't be everything to everyone. So being known for something is really important. So that's one mistake. Of course, early in your career, you're still trying to figure that out, and that's fine.

[00:18:47] And maybe if you're an associate, you don't really have that much control over the kind of work that you're getting. But pay attention. What gives you energy? What do you enjoy? Making sure to keep your marketing going all the time without just waiting for a rainy day is really important. And that's really hard for lawyers, especially lawyers who are tracking billable hours, because a billable hour is very tangible. You record the hour, and that's revenue generating.

[00:19:15] Hours that are spent on marketing are really, what I like to say, investment hours. And lawyers don't necessarily think in terms of investment. The other thing that happens is that lawyers get stuck working on or get involved heavily in something that's very time sensitive, and they just put the marketing aside. And so what I really encourage my clients to do is to really just try to find a few minutes

[00:19:40] each week, even if you're gearing up for trial, or if you've got a heavy week because you're working on a deal, you could still send out an email. You can make one phone call. Just try to do something to kind of keep your marketing going. Because if you just save it for a rainy day, then it's just never going to happen. And you're not going to be visible. Absolutely right. And then you're not going to be visible over time. The second piece is follow-up. So as lawyers, we're not very resilient.

[00:20:10] We don't like rejection. And I talk all the time with my clients about this. And I'm not just president of secular attorney coaching. I'm also a client. So I have exactly the same problem. When somebody doesn't respond to me, I immediately think, what did I do wrong? And I don't think I'm ever going to really get out of that mode of thinking, which is fine, because I just acknowledge it and then I move on. So what I like to say is I can go from headache to brain tumor. And there's like no thought in between those two thoughts.

[00:20:40] So if I have a proposal out to somebody and they haven't responded, I'm thinking, okay, what did I do wrong? Did I not tee this up properly? Did I give them too much information? Did I not give them enough information? But if you don't follow up, then you're really missing an opportunity. So maybe you sent an email to somebody. Maybe it ended up in their spam folder. Maybe they're really busy. Maybe their mother died.

[00:21:06] And that has happened, of course, to all of us on many occasions, myself included. And so follow up is a really important piece of all of this. And we don't do it enough. And the reason we don't do it is like we don't like rejection. And as you described before, we don't want to come across as kind of a sleazy salesperson. It just feels dirty to be doing that. But if you're reaching out because you're trying to be helpful, that's the shift. I think that's great. And it all starts with people's perspective.

[00:21:35] So as we bring things to a close here, Steve, if you could share three action steps that you think people can take to really implement these ideas into their daily practice, what would those three action steps be, Steve? So the first one would be get clarity on what it is that you're selling. Know who are the clients that you feel authentically interested in serving.

[00:21:59] And make sure that you're finding ways to meet with those clients or with referral sources, other professionals who serve those types of clients. The second thing is make sure to set aside time to be doing this on a regular basis. The third thing is make sure you're engaged in activities that feel authentic. That's really important. Authentic means the kinds of matters you like to work on, the kinds of clients you like to serve.

[00:22:26] And it also means the kinds of activities that you like to engage in. So my go-to example of this is if you don't like golf, don't play golf. Now, golf is a great way, of course, to spend time with CEOs and high net worth individuals. But it's a terrible way if you don't like golf. So find some other activity that you enjoy. Nonprofit, engagement, bar association, speaking. There are lots of different ways.

[00:22:50] But find those things, those activities that are authentic, that support your reputation building and support your relationship building. That's great, Steve. I appreciate that clarity on that. And thank you for being a guest on the show today. And before we go, tell us about your services, your offerings. What do you have? What do you do that you'd like our listeners to know? And we'll put that link on the show notes as well as the link for people to order your book on the show notes as well. Well, thank you so much, Scott, for having me. I really appreciate it. I really love what you do.

[00:23:20] And I've known you for a long time, but we haven't really spoken. So I really appreciate the opportunity to talk. And I look forward to speaking more. So putting it very simply, there are three areas that I coach. And I'm primarily a one-on-one coach.

[00:23:35] So if you're feeling a little stuck in your career, if you're feeling uncomfortable with marketing, or if you're new in a leadership role because you've become a practice group chair or a managing partner or a general counsel, and you want to get more comfortable with those roles because being a manager, being a leader is different than being an individual contributor. Then I'm happy to do a free consultation, and I'll just send you to my website, seckler.com, S-E-C-K-L-E-R.com.

[00:24:03] And there you can find a way to sign up, and I'm happy to talk to you. By the way, there's also a link on the homepage to purchase the book, and there's a discount code there. And the book is now also available on Amazon. And I will add, just to save you asking me the question, Scott, on Amazon, I believe that you can look at the first chapter. And in my own podcast, Counsel to Counsel, which I hope you'll be a guest on soon, you can listen to me read the first chapter of the book.

[00:24:32] So there won't be an audio book, but you'll get the first chapter if you go to my podcast, Counsel to Counsel. That's terrific. And we'll put your podcast link on the show notes also, Steve. And thank you for being here on the show and for sharing your wisdom. I think you have a pretty unique perspective and a unique story. But also, I like the tangible ways that you've explained this to people in your book. Thanks for being here today, Steve. Great job. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:25:02] For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit theraanmakingpodcast.com.