TRP 255: [Legal] Building a Thriving Culture in a Law Firm with Nicole Kosoff

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high-stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love. Thank you for joining me on the show. A recent update. Recently, we decided to add, not every Tuesday, but most Tuesdays, just for legal-focused topics.

[00:00:36] So if you're in the legal industry, definitely listen to those. If you're not, I don't know if it would give you a lot of value compared to our every Thursday. General Business Development Topics. So that's an update for you. And by the way, we color-coded those as teal. When you go to the website or anywhere you listen to the shows, those that are highlighted in teal are the legal-specific ones. Now, our topic today is Building a Thriving Culture in a Law Firm, and our guest is Nicole Kosoff.

[00:01:04] Now, I saw Nicole speak at a conference several years ago where I spoke at also one of David Ackert's Managing Partner Roundtables, and she gave some insights and action steps that can help any law firm leader make a difference in how that culture is perceived by their colleagues. She serves as the cultural ambassador for Greenberg-Glusker, a regional law firm based out of Los Angeles, where she manages employee engagement and contributes to recruitment and retention efforts.

[00:01:32] We put Nicole's contact information as well as Greenberg-Glusker's site information on the show notes. So if you want to connect with her, go ahead and reach out to her on LinkedIn directly. As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions' legal intelligence suite of products, Firmscape and Leopard BI. Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard. And now here's my conversation talking about a thriving culture with Nicole Kosoff. Thanks for listening.

[00:02:02] Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rainmaking Podcast. Our guest today is Nicole Kosoff, and we're talking about building a thriving culture in a law firm. Nicole, thanks for joining me on the show. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah, me too. And I learned a lot from you when you gave that presentation at David Ackert's Managing Partner Retreat. And I was so impressed with that that I'm glad you're here on the show to talk about culture. And first, I always like to get working definitions.

[00:02:28] How would you define what culture in a firm is really all about? How would you get your arms around that? Yeah, I think it's really important to define that because I think sometimes it feels really abstract, and it's really important to have a working definition. So I would define culture as the unique character or personality of an organization, which is shaped by the values of that organization and how those values are exhibited.

[00:02:55] And it's important to note, you know, that culture directly impacts engagement, workplace happiness, productivity, and overall retention, which I know is on a lot of people's minds. So it's really important to invest in. And I do want to make really clear, when I say invest, I think people assume it's yet another thing that they have to throw money at. But I would actually argue that some of the most impactful things with regard to cultivating a positive culture cost little to no money.

[00:03:24] So just to give you an example, we actually just celebrated our 65th anniversary last year, and our marketing team put together a video that featured interviews with different attorneys at our firm. And one of the things that our managing partner, Bob Baradarin, actually talked about in that video was a memory he has as a second-year associate of working with Steve Klayman, particularly with respect to how Steve Klayman never referred to Bob as his associate

[00:03:54] or somebody who works for him, but rather as somebody who works with him. And that's a perfect example of something that's just a little small shift that costs no money, but clearly has a tremendous impact, not only for the individual, but also on culture overall, because it really emphasizes connection and collaboration and partnership as opposed to hierarchy. So when defining culture, it's just really important to keep in mind that

[00:04:21] it's not defined by or dependent upon financial resources. So much of it really just comes down to how you treat people and the ways that you ensure that people feel valued and connected. You know, that's interesting. That's actually a three-day seminar that you encapsulated in 60 seconds. So there's a lot. And what's interesting when you said invest, I thought that's a really potent word, but it's not economic investment.

[00:04:49] Tell me what are ways that you've seen your firm invest in culture? What are some examples? You talked about the video. What are some other ways people have made investments? Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that we always say is that we profoundly subscribe to the belief that we work for people, not clients. And that specific line is obviously in reference to our client relationships as opposed to our internal culture. But with regard to our internal culture, I would actually take that same line and just tweak it

[00:05:18] to we profoundly subscribe to the belief that we work with people, not just employees. And I would argue that it's that mindset of viewing and respecting and celebrating team members as whole people, not just through the lens of what they do, that underlies the culture here. And that really makes this place so special to work. So what that looks like in practice, aside from that linguistic example, is providing opportunities to learn about one another. And again, this doesn't have to cost money.

[00:05:48] So for example, we do two truths and a lie every month where those who are celebrating a birthday submit two truths and a lie about themselves. And we send out an email with those two truths and a lie in the email of everyone celebrating a birthday that month. And GGers or team members here, they will guess what the lie is for each individual celebrating a birthday that month. This is great.

[00:06:14] Yeah. And what it does is it not only gives people the opportunity to learn things about one another that they may not have known for any other reason, but it sparks conversation and gives people who don't normally work together on a day-to-day basis an excuse to reach out and connect with one another. So opportunities like that to learn about one another. Also, work-life balance is really important.

[00:06:42] So that's another thing that was referenced in our 65th anniversary video. Steve Lurie, one of our real estate partners here who's on our management committee, he, for example, had talked about how this firm really gives people the opportunity to do more than just practice law. For him, he mentions in that video that he got to be a really present and engaged father in his kids' lives in a way that he says in that video wouldn't have been possible at a lot of other firms.

[00:07:10] Or Lee Drezzi, who's another partner here, talks about how as a third-year associate, he was able to pursue his interest in coaching basketball. So really respecting and supporting the outside lives and interests of the people that we work with, which I think is really unique. Also, a big one for us that I think we do in a really large way is celebrating and acknowledging milestones.

[00:07:34] So we are really big on whether it's retirement or something that's not work-related, either providing a shout-out in our newsletter or doing an event to celebrate in the office. So, for example, we host baby showers for team members who are expecting. We will put a little shout-out in our newsletter when someone gets engaged or married, which, you know, aside from acknowledging that milestone for them,

[00:08:01] also gives other people at the firm an opportunity to reach out to them and congratulate them, which really fosters that sense of, again, relationship building and belonging. And we'll support extracurricular interests as well. So we have a legal assistant who won first place in her 10K, so we gave her a shout-out as well. I have probably like two more I would mention would be... Yeah, tell me about those. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Inviting families to events.

[00:08:28] So we extend invitations to family and friends for many of our events. For example, we host a July 4th breakfast where families are invited to enjoy brunch, and we often have entertainment for the kids, such as face painting, balloon artists, and crafts. We also host trick-or-treating at the office where our team members bring their kids in costumes

[00:08:54] and take them around the office to collect, you know, candy, toys, prizes. Often, our team members are encouraged to bring a plus one or their families or friends to firm-wide summer events that we host. This has included private movie screenings at the AMC, bowling nights, and Dodgers games as well. And we've invited plus ones to our holiday parties as well. So, like, why is this important or what does this accomplish?

[00:09:23] It really communicates to our team members, again, that we see them and we value them as more than just simply what they do here. And it also gives us the opportunity to see each other in a different light, you know, as a mother, as a partner, as a friend. So that's really, I'd say, key as well to building a really positive culture. And one thing I'll tell you, Nicole, what you've described, I think, is a secret sauce of what firms need to retain talent.

[00:09:52] And there's a couple of things I want to go back over that you mentioned. But I see this through line, this theme to what you're mentioning to me. And you started off with the culture is the character or personality of an organization, which is shaped by their values. And I see that. Kind of starting with that, it's clear to me what you've articulated and what you said also, your values value people, people who are clients, people who are employees. I see that. And it's like your actions represent what your values are.

[00:10:20] What you've described to me, that makes me want to quit recruiting, get a law degree and move to L.A. and work for your firm. Because that just sounds really interesting and engaging. And I've been recruiting since 1995, and I've had probably 60,000 conversations with professionals about, are you open to making a move? No, I'm not. Why is that? I love it here. Why is that? And I always ask them. And there's always an emotional context to their answer. And it's never really with the work. It's more with the people.

[00:10:51] And I think you all have nailed it. So good job on that. So tell me this, then, when you talk about the values, does your leadership, do they have to espouse the values? Is it posted anywhere? Do you talk about that? Tell me about that for a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question. So in terms of who created the values or who really set the tone, it was really our founding partners who laid that foundation of caring deeply about people,

[00:11:19] about giving back to the Los Angeles community, and, of course, about practicing law. And as mentioned, again, I keep referencing, but that 65th anniversary video, we have two partners, Chuck Shepard and Norm Levine, both of whom talked about the role that more senior partners played in continuing to pass down those values and making sure that those values were instilled in younger lawyers and team members.

[00:11:46] So I think it really does sort of start at the top and triple down. Right. Okay, great. That's great. And so those are the people that were involved in shaping culture. What did you do? How did you shape the culture? And was it something that was intentional? Yeah, it's a really good question. So I like to say that when I got here six years ago, I would say the foundation was already in place in the sense that, like I said previously,

[00:12:12] obviously, you know, very clear values were already set and established. Where I came in, I would say, is just in coming up with fun and creative and novel ways to really just amplify those values that already existed even further. So as far as whether or not it was intentional, I would say that it was intentional while also being experimental.

[00:12:38] It was intentional in the sense that I knew what the values were and I knew what my goals were. And I knew that the ideas that I was coming up with were related to that goal. But it was experimental in the sense that I wasn't always sure that those ideas would have the impact that I wanted them to have or that they would really stick. Right. And, you know, some of my ideas flopped.

[00:13:02] So you learn and you pivot and you just keep sort of throwing spaghetti at the wall and running with what sticks. But whatever I created was always with the firm's values and goals in mind. And in some ways, I would say I got lucky because it felt pretty natural for me in the sense that I think the firm's values very much align with my own individual values. So I think for me, it was easier to have success in that sense. Right. So that's interesting.

[00:13:32] So your role was to really create activities and other vehicles, modalities to really communicate firm culture through the engagement of your people. Is that correct? Yes, correct. And I'm happy to give you some examples. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. What's one thing that surprised you the most when you did this, when you started doing this? One thing that surprised me the most? I would say that it's like surprising to me and not surprising to me.

[00:14:00] I would say that people tend to not recognize the impact that the very seemingly small, no cost things have on culture. So things like remembering people's names in every opportunity that you have access to. Things like asking someone, you know, what their weekend plans are or following up with someone. Oh, I remember, you know, you were training for a half marathon.

[00:14:30] How's that going? Small things like that have a tremendous impact. And I think sometimes when people think about, you know, how do we create a culture? It gets really abstract, like we were talking about earlier, when actually you can start with really small, simple steps. And those things often have the largest, most significant impact. Yeah, wow. That's interesting. What's one thing that you learned through all this?

[00:14:55] I think one thing that I've learned through all of this is at the end of the day, we are all human. And it's about finding the commonalities that bring us together and that break down the walls. You know, to give you an example, we have an application specialist here.

[00:15:18] I am someone who embarrassingly, particularly as a millennial, I'm not super well-versed in tech. And so if all I knew about him was that he was an application specialist, we wouldn't have much to connect over and probably wouldn't interact much. But if I learned that he is involved in a pickleball league or he is really into a genre of music that I also share a love for,

[00:15:46] all of a sudden we have so much more to connect over. And I think a lot of people are intimidated to talk to people who they don't have something already in place that they know they can talk about. So creating opportunities for people to learn about one another that gives them the excuse to then be able to talk to each other really helps to break down those walls and bring people together and create a sense of community and belonging. That's great.

[00:16:16] How did you come up with some of these ideas? Was there any sort of process you had to come up with an idea or what did you do? How did you do this? I wish I had a really formulaic answer for you, but I think it was sort of a combination of different things. I think to an extent I would borrow from what I had seen at startups, which is that's where I started. So I would borrow what I had seen in those environments.

[00:16:42] I'd talk to friends and find out, you know, was there anything they were doing that they found really successful in their workplaces that I could borrow from? Also doing research, but some of it was also just my own creativity. Things that I thought would be a lot of fun to implement in the workplace, creating videos, you know, just it was a little bit borrowed and a little bit my own innovation as well. Yeah, that's great. So, Nicole, let me ask you this question.

[00:17:10] Do you ever get input or ideas from coworkers or colleagues and some of the creativity that you've brought to this endeavor? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's so important to get feedback from the people that you work with, because if you don't do that, you're really just projecting what you think they value as opposed to really getting a real sense for what's actually meaningful to them. So it's really important to do so.

[00:17:37] And you can do so whether it's through more formal surveys. So, for example, for Administrative Professionals Day, we have sent out a survey to our coworkers to get a sense of what is it that they actually want to see this year? Like, what is, do they like the events? Would they rather, you know, a gift card? So that is a way of measuring and getting input as far as what actually resonates with people. That's great. Yeah.

[00:18:05] Some of it is also just conversations, you know, getting a sense of, hey, like, what did you think of this event? Like, if we were to do this event again, what do you think we could do better? Or what do you think would resonate more with people? So it's not just getting ideas from the leadership. It's getting ideas across the board from everybody, right? Absolutely. This is really interesting, Nicole. And it's impacting, too, to the organization because you're giving people a reason to stay.

[00:18:32] When they get a call from someone like me, I love it here. I don't care how good the opportunity is. I'm never going to leave because these people, they get me and I get them and we support each other. And they feel supported, too. So good job to you and to your firm for doing that. So as we bring this to a close, if you could kind of summarize and give us three action steps.

[00:18:53] If somebody wants to start shaping their culture to what you described, a place that's vibrant, people go to bed Sunday night because they're excited about going to work on Monday and being around their colleagues and doing good work together. And if we could kind of encapsulate that in three action steps, what would those three action steps be, Nicole? Yeah. So I would start by saying, I know I said this earlier, but start small. Like I said, I think sometimes people overcomplicate it and think they have to come up and launch this entire program.

[00:19:23] And as I mentioned earlier, some of the most impactful things can come from the smallest shifts. So just by really focusing on starting to do those little but not so little things, like remembering people's names and using them whenever you can, asking them how they're doing, remembering and inquiring about someone's extracurricular activities, making it a point to thank someone or compliment them on a job well done.

[00:19:46] And also, if you're a lawyer listening, I also want to take this opportunity to point out, you know, make sure you're doing this with staff members as much as you're doing this with other attorneys at your firm. And not just those staff members that you directly work with and already might have a relationship with, but any staff member.

[00:20:04] Because at the end of the day, you're one big team and you really want to promote unity and connection across the entire organization over any sort of hierarchy that ultimately leads to division. So that would be one big thing. A second thing I would say is collect feedback. This is so important for getting a true starting point and for continuing to make decisions around what you incorporate and what you leave behind.

[00:20:32] A lot of times people think they know what is good for their organization or what people value. But until you actually take the time to listen to people's feedback, you're really just projecting your own ideas as opposed to getting true intel. So, and it has the added benefit of making people feel like they have a voice and that their voice is valued, which is important for engagement.

[00:20:59] And the third thing and the last thing I would just say is outline your values and refer back to them when planning content and events to ensure that the why behind what you're planning or implementing actually aligns with those values. Otherwise, it just really may not accomplish what you're hoping to accomplish with regard to strengthening your culture. And, you know, you don't want to feel like out of steam or disappointed.

[00:21:26] So just make sure you're always referring back to those values that you've clearly defined. This is great, Nicole. This is really important. This is really important business here for people to really take this to heart and take action. If they have that culture and they want to go deep, look at their values and then do the things that you mentioned. So, Nicole, I'm going to thank you for being here. We're going to put your contact info, your firm's info on the show notes. So anybody listening, you can reach out to Nicole. We'll put your LinkedIn profile there as well.

[00:21:53] And thank you again for being here and sharing these great ideas, Nicole. I really appreciate that. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast. For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com.

[00:22:15] To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.