TRP 237: Developing Rainmakers with Hy Pomerance

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love. You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love. Thank you for listening to the show. If you're new to the show, bring your seat backs and tray tables to their full upright and locked positions and hold on because I've got content for you that's going to help you become a successful rainmaker.

[00:00:40] Each week I interview experts, thought leaders, practitioners on what they've done to build successful practices and all the variables and concepts associated with becoming a successful rainmaker. We've got over 230 episodes, so feel free to scroll through those, and I promise you one thing, it's going to shorten your commute. Today we've got a special episode with a special guest. His name is Hy Pomerance.

[00:01:05] He is the chief talent officer for Vincent and Elkins. Prior to V&E, he worked at Cleary. And prior to Cleary, he was a chief HR officer for New York Life Insurance Company. What's unique about Hy is that he's not just a senior business executive, he's also a clinical psychologist. And today we're talking about developing rainmakers. How can you, someone that's a practitioner in what you do, but you're also responsible for getting work,

[00:01:32] how can you help younger attorneys, younger professionals do the same thing? We're going to dive into that today with a lot of practical action steps that I think are going to make a difference in your organization. So make sure you listen to Hy, you can connect with him, go to the show notes, wherever you listen to this podcast and connect with him directly. As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal intelligence suite of products, Firmscape and Leopard BI. Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard.

[00:02:01] And now here's our conversation talking about developing rainmakers with Hy Pomerance. Thanks for listening. Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rainmaking Podcast. Our guest today is Hy Pomerance and we're talking about developing rainmakers. Hi, thanks for joining me on the show today. Scott, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to really hear your thoughts about this important topic. Then let's start with this.

[00:02:26] What are some of the fundamental concepts that you have in terms of developing rainmakers? Like when should somebody start to really develop that rainmaker mindset within their firm? Yeah, I'd say you've got to start from the day you arrive. So, you know, really as even a summer associate, you have an opportunity to start developing, I'll call it the muscles of rainmaking. You know, philosophically, I don't believe it's just one thing. It's not one skill. It's a pretty complex set of skills.

[00:02:55] And you really can develop those on the job from your, you know, again, summer, first, second, third year as an associate. And so everything about the legal practice work environment gives you an opportunity to build some of those muscles if you really lean into it. And it is something that we do at Vincent and Elkins quite intentionally in how we set it up.

[00:03:22] And I've never heard that before, starting on day one, even summer associate. I've always, you know, I've heard, well, now that you've been a partner for five years, we should teach about developing work. That's kind of what I've seen. Why do you think that is? Well, I think because the practice of law is, first of all, it's an apprenticeship sort of career. And there's an intense requirement to know the law and to learn how to practice.

[00:03:46] And so you actually aren't always paying attention to the business of law, which doesn't really become a priority to you until you become a partner. And so I think people just, you know, don't pay attention to it. And in a law firm like ours, you know, we will encourage those summer associates as an example, just get out and network, right? Get out and meet as many people as you possibly can.

[00:04:12] Like that is a good example to me of, and it sounds simple and it sounds like everyone does it, but it's intentional because it's one of the early antecedents of the muscle. That's right. And you mentioned a complex set of skills, certain muscles. If you could kind of break that down, maybe into three or four of the big rocks in the bucket, so to speak, what do you think some of those core skills are that a successful rainmaker needs to master? I think the first is actually just active listening.

[00:04:40] I think the ability to listen and listen in a way that allows you to get a little bit underneath what the person is saying. And, you know, it's beyond paying attention. It's really taking interest in what is being said, sometimes what isn't being said, and then developing your curiosity as a tool for connecting, right?

[00:05:03] So first it's listening and then it's inquiring and really kind of staying close to the person that you're talking with, right? And get underneath, right? Be really curious. The next big skill set to me is about being trustworthy. You've got to be able to make that connection. And, you know, trustworthiness is also complicated, but, you know, to be trustworthy is to be reliable. It's to be credible.

[00:05:30] You know, it's to be able to connect at a more intimate level with somebody, you know, so that they're going to confide in you, right? They trust you to, you know, listen carefully and not breach of confidence, for instance. Absolutely right.

[00:05:46] And I found, and I want to hear about your thoughts on this also, even in the little things, I always say that think of your clients as people that are observing reasons to disconnect with you, knowing that there's somebody just as smart as you are right behind you that can take them on as a client. And even the little things, when you say, I'm going to get you that document by Thursday night, if Thursday night comes and you didn't get it, you failed. You didn't fulfill an obligation, even though it was small. And people are always observing that. Well, what do you think about those thoughts, I?

[00:06:16] Yeah, I always say under promise, over deliver, right? So if it's Thursday night, I got it to you by Thursday afternoon. Yeah, absolutely. Without question. And, you know, you could actually teach those habits. And that's just another key sort of principle behind what I like to think about here, which is that you really are developing a set of habits, a set of routines. And that's why the earlier, the better, right? So that's what the muscle memory is there so that you can, you know, you're not really even thinking about it.

[00:06:45] It's just like putting one foot in front of the other. You've developed these habits from, you know, from, again, the start of your legal practice, legal career. And we embed that in the way we go about running the law firm. So as an example here, one of the things that we encourage our young associates to do is to go find their own work at the law firm. Wow. We call that the free market system. Now, of course, that doesn't really begin until you're a third year associate.

[00:07:14] First couple of years, you're obviously really just anxious enough to get started and doing the work. But, you know, by the time you're a second year, we're starting to talk to you about, you know, again, the net, the importance of networking, making the rounds, being curious, stepping into a partner's office and, you know, just being curious about what they're working on, about, you know, their practice in general.

[00:07:38] The types of matters, the types of deals that they're working on and start building those relationships so that the phone starts to ring for you internally. Right. So that free market system is intentional. And we find really benefits young lawyers to develop the rainmaking sort of mindset and ultimately skill set. That's great. Great. So let's say, and I like the fact that you mentioned this is part of your firm's culture, how it's institutionalized within the way your firm operates.

[00:08:06] Let's say there's a partner listening to this and he's like, you know, our firm doesn't have that. That's just not how we think. But I like that. What do you think that partner should do in terms of training their younger attorneys to develop these core skills, active listening, developing curiosity as a tool, being trustworthy? What do you think that person should do with his or her team? Well, one thing I think you can start just talking about it, the importance of expanding your network. You can help your team set some small goals.

[00:08:35] So, for instance, I call it the passbook. The passbook is sort of a, you know, how many partners have you talked to over the last three weeks? Right. And maybe add one or two over the next three weeks or three or four, depending on the size of the firm or the office or the practice group. So you can put some small goals in place to encourage these behaviors that we're talking about. Right.

[00:08:59] Networking, practicing your active listening and curiosity, you know, expressing your interests. Right. The old elevator pitch. Right. And developing that pitch around what are you interested in doing? Because oftentimes that'll be the question that you get asked. Make sure you have it ready. Make sure you're able to tell it in an authentic, engaging way. Again, you know, I'd say after the first day, that's something that a partner goes back to their obstacle.

[00:09:30] And many, many people do that already. Again, wiring it into the system, I think, is what makes Vincent and Elkins in particular really good at building or developing the Rainmaker. That's great. Again, it's part of our culture. And what about developing thought leadership? What has your firm done in terms of helping younger attorneys develop their own brand, so to speak, through thought leadership? Yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:09:55] I mean, that's encouraging them to get involved in either pitches, presentations, get out into the marketplace. You know, we also encourage young lawyers to just be smart about using LinkedIn and building your professional persona and presence in the marketplace. Don't underestimate them. I mean, that's a, you know, that just doesn't happen overnight.

[00:10:19] And getting young attorneys to write white papers to kind of work alongside the business development team to understand, you know, how pitches, for instance, are put together. You know, even though that sounds kind of operational. You know, they're picking up on the way the firm gets presented. You know, how do we talk about ourselves? And that's not something a partner is going to spend a lot of time talking about with a young lawyer.

[00:10:45] So, you know, it could be that the business development team can be, you know, a source of great information, even mentoring young lawyers. Yeah, those are great ideas. What about conferences? When do you think someone should really start attending conferences just to get to know other competitors who could become good friends also or referral partners, things like that? What do you think about conferences as a resource? Well, look, I'm a big fan of conferences.

[00:11:13] I mean, obviously, they become more relevant as you're entering your third, fourth, fifth year, that sort of mid-level associate stage. I think conferences can be – it's a challenge as well because that's when you're your busiest. And being able to get away can be difficult. But I would encourage the law firm to, you know, motivate mid-level associates to get out there, especially if they can go with a client, right?

[00:11:40] Or a young attorney that is working on the other side of the table from them and, you know, build those relationships while you're going to a conference. Yeah, that's a really good idea. Yeah. Let's just say somebody listening to this has done okay in their firm. And they're at the point where they really should be getting clients like their own book, but they're an introvert. And they think, you know, I don't want to be one of those people that, you know, at the end of the day, I'm the life of the party. I'm just not like that.

[00:12:07] I'd rather just sit here and do my work because I'm a good attorney. What would you tell that person to encourage them to consider some of the things that you're talking about, High? Well, you know, what I would say is it's important for somebody who's introverted, and I happen to be introverted myself, that it's not really about being extrovert. Although I understand it can be exhausting to socialize, right?

[00:12:31] I would try to distinguish for this person the difference between socializing and networking, you know, and get them interested in talking shop as opposed to, you know, the small talk, the sort of social side of business development, you know, and take your interests and find a way to connect with. And that's why conferences are great because they're quite substantive, right?

[00:13:01] But I think we want to help them distinguish between the social side and, you know, the sort of intellectual curiosity that they already, we know, possess. They wouldn't be practically involved if they didn't. Absolutely right. And that's what I found. You're absolutely right about conferences. I mean, they're potent. It's a potent place to do business because as you're putting a shrimp on your plate, you can look at someone and say, tell me about your practice. And they can look at you and say, well, I'm looking for someone like you.

[00:13:26] And it can happen that quickly where, because that's their expectation, right? They're at a conference to do business and to learn and to grow. And the walls are down. You can get right to the point. I like that. I like how you describe that to distinguish between the social side and intellectual side. I think that's really good. Yeah. And what do you think about someone that is hearing this, but they're still hesitating? I don't know if I should develop my people. I really think that I'm going to delegate that to our marketing department.

[00:13:54] I'm too busy servicing my clients, but I've got four or five associates on my team. I'm going to let the marketing people take care of that. What do you think about that? Well, what do I think? I think that's a little short-sighted. I mean, my view is that it would be helpful to your own practice to start to build the sort of mindset of your associates around what, how you think about building your practice.

[00:14:20] And so I encourage partners to take associates with them on business development calls. You know, take them with you when you're, you know, going out for dinner. You're going to, you know, a sports event, you know, a music event. You know, help them to see how you connect with clients. You know, shadowing a partner is such a powerful learning experience. Our young associates, we know they're all sponges. It doesn't require that you're teaching them.

[00:14:49] Just bring them along. They will take it in. I think that's great. I even had the idea when you talked about the passbook concept. I thought you could gamify this. Oh, excellent. Yeah. You could have like, we're going to give you a series of points. For each conference you attend, that's worth 20 points. For each internal colleague that you meet who's a partner, that's worth three points. For each new prospect client you just have a conversation with, that's worth 30 points. And we'll have quarterly contest every quarter.

[00:15:17] And the winner, they get dinner that all of us are paying for. Something like that. What do you think about gamifying it that way high? I love it. I love it. Actually, that's something that you can do at a summer program even. You can experiment with that kind of thing with summers and say, you know what? We want you to fill your book. We want you to list, you know, go fill it with a list of partners or even just senior associates that you've met over the course of the next six weeks.

[00:15:44] And, you know, whoever has the most names in their book, you know, wins the iPad. And that's sort of, you know, that gamification, first of all, it's motivating and it's fun. And it gets people thinking consciously about when they're inactive. And, you know, there's a lot of sort of dead time that unfortunately doesn't get used to practice some of these, you know, these, again, critical habits. Right, right.

[00:16:12] One thing I want to ask you about in terms of developing Rainmakers, and you know this, it's keeping in touch. You meet a client prospect at a conference. Should that be the only time you talk to them? Well, I'll let them call me if they're ever interested. Or, but you don't want to be intrusive. You don't want to say, hey, it's me again. How do you keep in touch with people like that? Or how would you encourage up-and-coming Rainmakers to do so without wearing out their welcome, so to speak? Yeah, no, that's a great question.

[00:16:40] Again, I think if you start practicing that sort of relationship building activity early on, it becomes second nature. Again, I find all of these capabilities are hard to switch on when you become that first-year partner. Yeah. But if you've been reaching out to partners, even internally, on a regular basis, you know, you've gotten to, you know, you know where they went on vacation. You know, you remember to wish them a Happy New Year.

[00:17:09] It doesn't have to be an in-depth conversation. But having your name appear in their inbox at the, you know, top of the inbox sometimes is enough. And you never know. They will call you for work. Yeah, that's great. What do you think they should do? Like, here's an article I saw. I thought of you when I read this. Things like that. Yeah, or it could be a question that you had. I saw that you were the lead on XYZ Matter. Would you be willing to have coffee with me? I have a few questions. That's great.

[00:17:39] That's simple, right? Anybody can do that. And it's pretty basic. And eventually, you sort of lower your resistance to those kinds of interactions. And especially going back to your introvert example. And again, it becomes second nature. Let me ask you this. Tell me a story of someone that you've seen where they started developing these rainmaking skills and all of a sudden they had critical mass. What do you think was a key inflection point in their career where things really just opened up for them?

[00:18:07] Well, what's interesting about it, absolutely. There's a... I can think of a couple of different associates who I watched over a period of four years, just four years, really develop not only... And again, this is internal, right? Not only just develop the relationships with partners in a particular practice group. And of course, they did good work, which is why they get repeat business.

[00:18:32] But eventually, they're developing the trust that the partner then said, you know, we'd like you to be part of our client team, right? We know that the client relies on you. So now we want to ask you to continue to protect and build this relationship with this client. It's the kind of thing that it begins internally. You're just working on the deal. Of course, you know the client sees good work being done.

[00:19:01] I mean, that's always a given. But what's important is that you have shown the client, you know, responsiveness. You know, if you don't know the answer to a question, you're going to get the answer to that question and you're going to get back to them right away. It's the kind of thing where the partner sees the client service in you first and then unleashes that to their client.

[00:19:25] And that's, you know, I've talked to a number of associates who said, you know, once the partner encouraged me to have dinner with the client myself, I knew that was, you know, I've arrived. Dinners are better than lunches, right? Dinners are much better than lunches. Nobody's looking at their watch and yeah, sure, I'll have another glass of wine. Right. And then you get to know them personally and that's where the trust really expands. Really?

[00:19:47] Are there any pitfalls or danger areas that those looking to develop younger rainmakers need to watch out for as they go through this? It's a great question. I think one of the pitfalls is the proverbial burnout. You know, the associate, you know, has to get the work done at the same time and you have to just make sure that they're managing their time really carefully. You know, the problem with business development activity is it's not billable.

[00:20:16] And so for the associate, it's a bit more challenging, right? They're not getting credit for participating necessarily in business development activity. And so I think a pitfall is they can stretch themselves too thin. So that's on the, in a way, on the positive side, right? You got to, the partner needs to be careful that they're not stretching the associate too far. You know, one of the other pitfalls is, is just forgetting to bring your client. I'm sorry, to bring your associate along with you.

[00:20:46] It's impressive to clients when they see a partner bringing along a young associate. And I think clients really value that. They really value that you're developing your talent. They understand that. They're there to learn. They're there to participate in, you know, exploring a matter. So I think, I think not doing that is a pitfall unto itself. Right. You know, just like, you know, when clients observe that a partner doesn't really introduce

[00:21:15] them to other partners in their law firm. I think it's a pitfall to not bring your young associates along. Absolutely right. And the things that you're talking about, they're not insurmountable. These are simple action steps people can take. It's just about being mindful of that and doing it on a regular, consistent basis. That's right. So, so Hai, as we bring this to a close, if we could summarize and if you could give us three action steps people can take to really get started implementing these ideas, what would those three steps be, Hai?

[00:21:43] I think the first one is encourage your associates to network. Really simple, right? Just encourage them to think, you know, sort of think about what they're doing in as broad a way as possible. You know, if you're a finance lawyer, encourage them to meet the tax partners. Yeah. Right. Think at the adjacent sort of the edges of what they do and encourage them to network.

[00:22:12] That would be, that would be the first thing. The second thing is consider opportunities to bring your associates along. I think that, that shadowing is sometimes the easiest way to start building the Rainmaker mindset. They see you do it. They begin to appreciate how you're doing it. And they understand that this is about a relationship, not a transaction. It's hard to teach that.

[00:22:41] So, you know, role model it for them. Absolutely. That would be the second thing. And the third thing from my perspective is give them an opportunity to sort of work alongside the business development team. Give your young associates an opportunity to see, you know, what is the business development team? You know, what materials are they working with? And how are they presenting the firm? Give them exposure to, you know, the whole business development, you know, machine.

[00:23:09] It will help them appreciate this side of the business. And associates do rarely get to see that. That's great. Hi. I mean, that's real depth right there. And one other thing I think, here's a bonus. This is going to keep in retention when a recruiter calls to try to take them away. They're like, yeah, you know, they've taught me so much here. I can't leave that. I can't go anywhere. I'm so loyal to them. I think it really, when you, because the overall premise I use in recruiting people is that people's self-interest is what motivates them.

[00:23:39] And when you give people a reason to stay, it strengthens your whole organization. So I think that's an ancillary benefit also that comes along with this. So, Hyde, tell us about yourself and your role and your firm. What would you like our listeners to know about you? Well, I'm the chief talent officer at Vincent and Elkins. I'm based here in New York. I'd like people to know that I'm actually not a lawyer, that I'm a psychologist by training

[00:24:06] and have for the past 25 years always used, you know, principles of human behavior and change and motivation to really kind of build systems and organizational cultures that develop top talent. And I think Vincent and Elkins is a law firm that has embraced that and made that very much a part of their culture. That's great. Hyde. I appreciate you being on the show. And for everybody listening, we're going to put Hyde's contact information on the show notes.

[00:24:34] So no matter where you listen to the show, go there and you'll be able to connect with him directly. Hyde, thanks for being on the show. And I'd love to stay in contact with you. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to the Rainmaking Podcast. For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com. To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting, or

[00:25:04] executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com. Thank you.