TRP 225: Curating Your Career with Dena Lefkowitz

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:23] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love.

[00:00:27] Thank you so much for being here on the show, and thank you for helping our show achieve the success that it's had.

[00:00:33] I really appreciate that.

[00:00:35] Before we talk about our topic and our guest today, I want to read something from our guest's website.

[00:00:41] Many attorneys are living in litigation against yourselves and putting your own needs last, whether it be neglecting to build business relationships, failing to implement a marketing plan, sacrificing well-being, or lacking the confidence to step up to the career you really want.

[00:00:58] I think Dena Lefkowitz gets right to the point, and that's the whole theme of our show today.

[00:01:03] Our topic today is called Curating Your Career.

[00:01:06] And I love that title.

[00:01:07] It's very clear, and it's concise, and it does give you clarity in what you need to be thinking about when you're making decisions about your career.

[00:01:16] Let me tell you a little bit more about our guest, Dena, today.

[00:01:20] She's the founder of Achievement by Design.

[00:01:22] It's a leading executive coaching firm focused on helping lawyers find career direction and partnering with law firms and law departments to help attorneys become great rainmakers and leaders.

[00:01:34] Dena is the award-winning author of Winning in Your Own Court, 10 Laws for a Successful Career Without Burning Out or Selling Out, published by the American Bar Association.

[00:01:43] My friends, I read this book.

[00:01:45] It has some fantastic insights, some revelations, even some challenging of your premises in terms of how you make decisions.

[00:01:53] I'd highly recommend it.

[00:01:55] And in fact, we put the link to order the book on the show notes as well as Dena's contact information.

[00:02:02] The topic title, like I mentioned, is Curating Your Career.

[00:02:05] Now, if you're not in the legal industry, the concepts will apply to any professional services rainmaker.

[00:02:11] As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal intelligence suite of products, Firmscape and Leopard BI.

[00:02:19] Push ahead of the pack with the power of leopard.

[00:02:22] And now here's my conversation with my friend, Dena Lefkowitz.

[00:02:25] Thanks for listening.

[00:02:28] Hi, this is Scott Love with the Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:02:30] Our special guest today is Dena Lefkowitz.

[00:02:34] And our topic is Curating Your Career.

[00:02:36] Dena, thank you for joining me on the show today.

[00:02:39] Great to be with you.

[00:02:40] This is exciting because we both work in the legal industry and I wouldn't be surprised if we know a lot of the same people.

[00:02:46] And I liked the phrase that you came up with for our topic today, Curating Your Career.

[00:02:52] Tell me, what does that mean to curate a career?

[00:02:55] Give me some working definitions, please.

[00:02:57] A lot of times lawyers call me when they're at a career transition.

[00:03:01] They're not really sure what to do.

[00:03:03] And they feel like if they change to a different area of law, they're abandoning everything that they've learned, everything that they've done and every experience that they've ever had.

[00:03:14] And they're starting from scratch.

[00:03:16] You're never starting from scratch.

[00:03:19] One of my very first jobs in life was in a nursery school.

[00:03:23] That led to babysitting.

[00:03:25] That led to working in a daycare center.

[00:03:27] I also worked as a waitress.

[00:03:29] Then I was a lawyer and now I'm a coach.

[00:03:33] There's a through line to my career.

[00:03:35] It's about helping people and being of service.

[00:03:39] And so if I look at my collection, a lot of those early experiences were really important to the lawyer that I became.

[00:03:47] And being the lawyer I was was important to the coach I became.

[00:03:52] So these are all pieces of my collection.

[00:03:54] And if we just say, oh, that doesn't matter because it's not relevant or that doesn't matter because you weren't in the same field, then we're discounting our range.

[00:04:05] Right.

[00:04:07] And sometimes employers are looking for range.

[00:04:09] They can train a lot of things, but they can't train gravitas.

[00:04:16] Right.

[00:04:16] Right.

[00:04:17] Well, let me let me ask you this.

[00:04:18] A couple of things that you mentioned.

[00:04:19] You talked about a through line.

[00:04:21] What does that mean exactly?

[00:04:22] It means that there are commonalities to the things that I picked to do in life.

[00:04:27] A lot of people feel like their careers are just disparate collections of stuff like I did this and then I did that and it makes no sense.

[00:04:36] But if you look at it, I bet you it will make sense because there's a reason that you did those things.

[00:04:42] There's a reason that you made those choices.

[00:04:44] And if you sit down and think about it and write about it, you'll figure it out.

[00:04:48] And there's going to be a connection.

[00:04:50] There's going to be connective tissue between the different things that you've done.

[00:04:55] And that's where we curate your career.

[00:04:58] Do you think those opportunities that follow that same through line that have similar connection points, so to speak, do you think those are the opportunities that are most likely to give that attorney what he or she is looking for?

[00:05:10] I'm not sure I know what you mean.

[00:05:12] So you mentioned the through line helping people.

[00:05:15] So my thinking is when you're coaching people, you're looking at what are those variables?

[00:05:19] What is that through line?

[00:05:20] And you're trying to, I guess, project in the future what's going to be attached to that through line.

[00:05:25] Is that accurate, do you think?

[00:05:27] Yes, because it all comes down to values.

[00:05:29] One of the reasons that I like helping people is because I'm high in altruism.

[00:05:35] And altruism is a desire to make the world a better place, to stick up for the little guy, to leave things better than you found them.

[00:05:42] And not everybody has high altruism on a scale of a year to 100.

[00:05:48] I'm like an 80 in altruism.

[00:05:50] So it runs very strong in me.

[00:05:52] And that's why every career choice I've ever made has really been about there's always been an element of service to it and helping people.

[00:06:01] That's great.

[00:06:02] That's great.

[00:06:03] Having problems.

[00:06:05] Right, right.

[00:06:05] And you also talked about range.

[00:06:07] How would you define that?

[00:06:08] What does that mean exactly?

[00:06:09] Well, I had a very legal career.

[00:06:13] I started out as a personal injury litigator.

[00:06:15] Then I did some commercial litigation.

[00:06:17] I didn't like litigation because it wasn't a good fit for my personality.

[00:06:22] I don't really like to be surprised.

[00:06:24] And I'm not that adventurous.

[00:06:27] And being a litigator is all about being surprised.

[00:06:29] I had a suit hanging on the door of my office just in case I had to go to court on a day that I wasn't expecting to.

[00:06:36] Then I went to the school district of Philadelphia and I did education law.

[00:06:40] Then I became general counsel of the Chester Upland School District.

[00:06:44] And then I went to the Nemours Foundation and did compliance law.

[00:06:48] And I also did a stint in the Office of Open Records.

[00:06:51] So I know a lot of different areas of the law.

[00:06:55] At one time, I was the go-to person in the country on charter school law because Philadelphia was leading the charge on charter schools.

[00:07:04] We had more in Philly than the whole rest of the country combined.

[00:07:07] Then I became an expert in transparency law when I was chief counsel to the Office of Open Records.

[00:07:13] And this collection of experiences and learning and expertise has led me to become a lawyer coach where when my clients speak to me,

[00:07:27] I understand because of my range, I understand.

[00:07:32] They don't have to stop and say, well, a motion for summary judgment is or a deposition is.

[00:07:38] You don't have to do that.

[00:07:39] I understand.

[00:07:40] Sometimes I know more about it than they do.

[00:07:43] Occasionally, not very often.

[00:07:45] So let me ask you this.

[00:07:46] Let's say somebody reaches out to you.

[00:07:47] It's a partner in a firm, an associate, maybe someone in-house, maybe someone in government.

[00:07:52] And they're at that point, I know I need to do something different.

[00:07:55] What do you think most of the reasons are why people will come to you seeking to make a change?

[00:08:01] There are different kind of avatars, but they fall into some pretty traditional characterizations.

[00:08:09] So one would be a lawyer who's just not happy in the practice area that they're in.

[00:08:15] Another would be a lawyer who's just not happy practicing law.

[00:08:18] And another might be a lawyer who is doing well, but wants to get promoted,

[00:08:23] wants to make partner, wants to get business and doesn't know how.

[00:08:26] In each instance, there is, we have to assess the situation and figure out where we are now.

[00:08:33] Kind of like when you're at the mall and you don't know how to find the store you're going to.

[00:08:39] So you look at the map and it goes, you are here and your going is here.

[00:08:43] And then you chart out a route to get there, usually involving escalators or elevators or something like that.

[00:08:49] And it's the same thing with a career.

[00:08:51] You are here.

[00:08:52] How did you get here?

[00:08:54] What decisions did you make that caused you to be here?

[00:08:57] And a very common thing with lawyers, Scott, and I know you know this, is it was the default career.

[00:09:03] I didn't know what to do when I graduated from college and I thought law would be a great career for somebody who's a good communicator, a good writer, a smart person, a good problem solver.

[00:09:14] So I threw a dart at a high paying career and I became a lawyer.

[00:09:18] And now I hate it.

[00:09:19] Right, right.

[00:09:21] Are there any themes among those people that come to you that are very similar in terms of motives to move?

[00:09:29] Yes.

[00:09:30] Unfortunately, a lot of law firms have very bad environments.

[00:09:34] And that's one reason that people want to move.

[00:09:37] I'm going to be talking to somebody later today who has had a series of unfortunate experiences in law firms where people were dysfunctional, drinking too much and things like that.

[00:09:50] So that's a reason that some people leave.

[00:09:53] Some people leave because there's not enough opportunity.

[00:09:55] They want to bring in business, but they they're not being encouraged to do so.

[00:10:01] The partners want them to do their work, not the work they bring in.

[00:10:04] And so they're feeling like I've got to get out so I can spread my wings and fly.

[00:10:09] And then we have kind of the reluctant marketer, somebody who went to law school, did very well, is a very good lawyer.

[00:10:17] But now they're five or six years out and partnership is starting to be on the horizon and they have zero book of business.

[00:10:27] And that happens a lot because in law school, they don't talk about business development.

[00:10:32] Right.

[00:10:32] Not one of the skills that's taught in law school.

[00:10:35] And it really should, because law is the only profession that's not allowed to have a sales force.

[00:10:42] The only one.

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:44] And so lawyers have to be the sales force.

[00:10:47] And if you're not prepared for that, as I wasn't, I was not prepared to be a salesperson.

[00:10:52] I was caught off guard by the idea that I was going to have to eat what I kill.

[00:10:59] And I didn't know that.

[00:11:00] So if that's not something that you were expecting, something that you trained for, something that you, you know, just inherently are good at,

[00:11:09] you're going to have to get some training in business development because it's it is not it requires some knowledge and skill and expertise to do.

[00:11:18] I mean, anybody can learn to do it.

[00:11:19] It's not hard.

[00:11:20] It's not rocket science, but it's very different from the practice of law and really involves a whole different skill set.

[00:11:26] Wouldn't you agree?

[00:11:27] Absolutely right.

[00:11:28] And that's something I've seen with people that they just don't even think about that until it's too late or they're further along in their career.

[00:11:34] And then they don't have options.

[00:11:37] I want to tell you a little cautionary tale about that, if you don't mind.

[00:11:40] Sure.

[00:11:41] Absolutely.

[00:11:41] I had been out for about eight years and my law firm was closing and all of the lawyers were looking for work.

[00:11:49] We were all good lawyers.

[00:11:51] But guess who got the first offers?

[00:11:54] The ones who had a business.

[00:11:56] Options.

[00:11:57] Always gives you options.

[00:11:58] Absolutely right.

[00:11:59] And it's not rocket science.

[00:12:00] It's simple, but it's about doing something.

[00:12:03] And that is something I want to have you talk about in a future show, Dina, because I know you talk about that also.

[00:12:08] So let's imagine somebody is having to make a decision.

[00:12:11] I've got some career challenge.

[00:12:39] I've got some career challenge.

[00:12:41] When you're going to make a decision.

[00:12:43] When you're going to make a decision that they've made.

[00:13:10] And it could come from a variety of reasons.

[00:13:13] Those same things could be attributable to burnout.

[00:13:17] To loss of loss of interest in the area of work.

[00:13:22] Overwork.

[00:13:23] So that's the first thing you have to do is figure out the why.

[00:13:27] Why are you feeling this way?

[00:13:29] Right.

[00:13:30] What I recommend is a personality and values assessment.

[00:13:34] Because if I asked you, Scott, what do you value in life?

[00:13:38] You would probably say security, family.

[00:13:42] The same things we all say.

[00:13:44] But if you actually rank your values in order, you can make much better decisions about the kind of firm you want to join.

[00:13:51] The kind of people you want to work with and the kind of work you want to do.

[00:13:55] So give me an example.

[00:13:56] How do you help someone identify and gain clarity to what their core values are?

[00:14:00] Okay.

[00:14:01] Well, I had a lawyer come to me who was a labor and employment attorney in a big firm.

[00:14:08] So he was representing the interests of major corporations in labor disputes.

[00:14:13] I did his personality and values assessment.

[00:14:16] And out of zero to 100, he was 100 in altruism.

[00:14:19] But he was miserable in his work.

[00:14:21] And he didn't know why.

[00:14:23] But as soon as I saw his assessment, I knew why.

[00:14:26] Because he was in total disalignment with his values.

[00:14:29] Every single day, he was sticking it to the little guy instead of sticking up for the little guy.

[00:14:35] And if you go in to do a job every single day that is out of kilter with what you value and what you think is important,

[00:14:44] you're not going to have a happy, satisfied, or fulfilling life.

[00:14:49] Now, that didn't mean he had to quit his job as a labor lawyer.

[00:14:53] In fact, he didn't.

[00:14:54] But what he did do was start getting involved in some more pro bono activities,

[00:14:59] sort of evening out his life a little bit so that he got fed some of that altruistic feed that he needed,

[00:15:07] some of that altruistic food that he desperately needed.

[00:15:10] That's fantastic.

[00:15:11] I don't even know him.

[00:15:12] I'm excited for him.

[00:15:13] That he found his way.

[00:15:15] He found his joy.

[00:15:16] Thanks to you, Dina.

[00:15:17] Oh, my God.

[00:15:17] I feel that way so often about this job.

[00:15:21] I love being the catalyst for change in people's lives, Scott.

[00:15:25] Yeah.

[00:15:25] Yeah.

[00:15:26] I see it the same way, just with a different lens, helping people go to a firm that's better aligned to their goals.

[00:15:32] Because it's not about me.

[00:15:33] It's not the Scott show.

[00:15:34] It's about them and what they want to accomplish.

[00:15:37] And I like the way you think on that also, Dina.

[00:15:38] I really like the way that you bring people to a core value perspective first, because that's where it all starts, right?

[00:15:45] Yes.

[00:15:46] And if I could just say one more thing.

[00:15:48] In the assessment that I use, for every value, it has an occupational preference segment.

[00:15:54] So just because you might be high in recognition and you're the kind of person that likes to have a pat on the back and be publicly acknowledged,

[00:16:02] doesn't mean that you have to work in an environment like that.

[00:16:05] So that's where we separate what you care about from what you need in a job.

[00:16:09] And we look at the occupational preferences and preferred associates, who you want to hang out with.

[00:16:14] And we separate what you value from what you like doing.

[00:16:18] That's great, Dina.

[00:16:20] So let me ask you this question.

[00:16:21] Somebody is thinking about making a career change.

[00:16:24] What are the pitfalls that you've seen people need to avoid as they're starting to make change?

[00:16:31] They make a knee-jerk reaction to change.

[00:16:34] They say, miserable, I'm going to leave this firm.

[00:16:36] I'm going to leave the law.

[00:16:38] And then they make another default decision, just like the first one they made.

[00:16:42] So this time around, I suggest that you investigate before you commit.

[00:16:48] And as I was just talking about values, if altruism is important to you, what are the values of the firm where you're working now?

[00:16:57] And what would you be looking for in a culture at a different firm?

[00:17:01] Same with recognition, same with security, same with all of the values.

[00:17:05] Does what you value, is it reflected in the organization that you're working for now?

[00:17:10] If not, that might be why you're unhappy and isn't reflected in organizations that you're thinking of joining.

[00:17:17] Right.

[00:17:18] That's great.

[00:17:19] So how do you help people process these decisions?

[00:17:22] Are you giving them options?

[00:17:24] Here's one, two, three.

[00:17:25] Do you ask them questions to kind of help channel them to find their way?

[00:17:29] How do you normally do that, Dina?

[00:17:30] Well, that's where, you know, I'm really not a career advisor.

[00:17:34] Like, I'm not going to say you would be perfect for a career in social work.

[00:17:39] You know, I help them figure out what their deal breakers are, what they have to haves are, and what they're nice to haves are, and what their I don't care abouts are.

[00:17:50] And from there, we figure out what kind of culture they would want to work in, what kind of environment they would want to work in, what kind of people they would want to work with.

[00:18:00] And then we look for those opportunities.

[00:18:04] But I tell you, sometimes during the data collection process, the assessment, me looking at choices that they've made in the past, causes a change.

[00:18:16] The way that I do career transition is on parallel tracks.

[00:18:20] So on this track, you're still working there.

[00:18:23] So we try to make it as palatable and pleasant as possible.

[00:18:27] Is there anything you could squeeze out of it?

[00:18:29] Any more value?

[00:18:30] Any extra resume additions that you could get while you're still there?

[00:18:34] So we try to make this better while we're looking at that, while we're exploring and evaluating, examining.

[00:18:42] So during this process, I was working with a family attorney who came in saying, I have to leave the law.

[00:18:48] I have to do it right now.

[00:18:49] I hate it.

[00:18:49] I'm miserable.

[00:18:50] Get me out.

[00:18:51] Well, I found out that she was working until 10 o'clock almost every night because her boss would drop something on her desk at the end of the day.

[00:18:58] And she just thought she had to stay and finish it.

[00:19:00] And she did that all the time without ever asking when it was due, without ever checking, and without ever negotiating.

[00:19:07] She just took it, finished it, and burned herself right out.

[00:19:10] So while we were working together on career transition, I also was asking her what she might be able to do to work fewer hours and to make life at work better.

[00:19:21] So she had a conversation with her boss.

[00:19:24] And it turned out that he never expected her to stay and finish everything that he was giving to her.

[00:19:30] She assumed.

[00:19:31] She never asked.

[00:19:32] And she suffered in silence for years.

[00:19:35] So after that conversation, she started working more normal hours.

[00:19:41] She fell in love with family law again, decided to stay at the firm, and has had several promotions in the years since I coached her, is making more money now than she used to.

[00:19:54] So that goes to show you that having a conversation with your boss about the working conditions doesn't necessarily lead to termination, as many people think.

[00:20:05] See, that's great.

[00:20:06] To clarification.

[00:20:08] Yeah.

[00:20:08] And then a much better working relationship.

[00:20:12] And I think when I come across people, I want to move, I have a problem I can't solve except for moving, I'll even challenge them.

[00:20:18] I'll say, have you talked to anybody about that?

[00:20:21] Because if they're going to not be a good candidate to move, I want to find out now rather than later on after they start talking with other firms and waste a lot of time.

[00:20:29] And so I'll ask them, have you ever talked about that?

[00:20:31] So I think that's a good idea for people to consider having that conversation to see if you don't have to move.

[00:20:37] Because moving can be a disruption, changing to something completely different, even though it follows that same through line, it can be some change with stress also.

[00:20:46] I have to add something to that.

[00:20:47] Sure. Absolutely.

[00:20:48] If you don't address those tendencies in yourself, you'll carry them to the next job.

[00:20:53] And then you'll be a workaholic there, and you still won't be any happier.

[00:20:57] Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:20:59] So are there any homework exercises that you give people?

[00:21:03] Is journaling a big part of this whole journey for them as they go through change?

[00:21:06] What do you think, Dina?

[00:21:07] Yes.

[00:21:08] We tend to think black and white, especially us lawyers.

[00:21:12] Win, lose.

[00:21:13] Win or loser.

[00:21:14] Plaintiff defendant.

[00:21:16] And black and white thinking is not a great way to approach your career.

[00:21:20] And so, you know, you might one day you might be feeling like this job sucks.

[00:21:24] I have to leave it.

[00:21:25] It's horrible.

[00:21:25] And the next day you might feel better.

[00:21:28] So one thing I ask people to do is track that for a while.

[00:21:31] How many good days?

[00:21:33] How many bad days do you have?

[00:21:34] What percentage of your time are you spending doing things that you don't want to do or with

[00:21:39] people that you don't want to do it with?

[00:21:41] So that we're not working with data.

[00:21:44] I believe in data, not picture, not anecdotal, but actual data.

[00:21:49] And not rounding up to the nearest number.

[00:21:54] But, you know, what is your current level of satisfaction?

[00:21:57] And the only way we can really do that is by looking at, you know, more than one day.

[00:22:03] And sometimes lawyers hate this, but sometimes I ask them to keep a 168-hour log.

[00:22:10] This comes from the work of Gretchen Vanderkamp.

[00:22:13] We all get the same number of hours in a week, Scott.

[00:22:17] Me, you, Beyonce, all of us.

[00:22:22] 168.

[00:22:22] And yet we tend to think time is unlimited.

[00:22:25] We say yes to everything.

[00:22:26] We don't execute on our priorities.

[00:22:29] So if you actually kept the log of everything you did for two weeks, I guarantee you there

[00:22:36] would be some light bulb moments.

[00:22:38] I've had to say I had no idea I spent so much time on Facebook.

[00:22:42] I had no idea I spent so much time on the phone with my mother.

[00:22:46] And this is great.

[00:22:47] Maybe you want to keep doing those things.

[00:22:49] Maybe you don't.

[00:22:50] But at least you have the data.

[00:22:51] I think that's really helpful.

[00:22:52] And I think that's very wise to have that real sense of what's really going on.

[00:22:56] So as we bring our time to a close here, if somebody is thinking about making change,

[00:23:01] or maybe they're just not completely happy and they don't know if they should leave or stay,

[00:23:06] if you could summarize three action steps that people can take to really start implementing

[00:23:12] those ideas, what would those three action steps be, Dina?

[00:23:15] I would say collect some data first.

[00:23:18] Ask people that know you, what do you think of when you think of me?

[00:23:23] What do you think I'm good at?

[00:23:25] And then take a values assessment.

[00:23:28] What's important to you?

[00:23:29] What would make you get out of bed in the morning?

[00:23:31] And what would make you pull the covers back over your head?

[00:23:34] And consider informational interviewing.

[00:23:37] Talk to people who've been in the role that you're thinking about before jumping into it

[00:23:41] feet first, see what their day to day is like, see what they wish they had known when they

[00:23:46] started and get some real data on the roles that you're thinking about.

[00:23:51] That's great, Dina.

[00:23:52] That's very good advice.

[00:23:53] Thank you for being here.

[00:23:54] And before we go, tell our listeners, what do you have?

[00:23:57] What do you do?

[00:23:58] And what would you like for them to know about you?

[00:23:59] And we'll obviously put links to reach back out to you on our show notes.

[00:24:04] So no matter where you're listening to the show, go to the show notes and you'll be able

[00:24:07] to connect with Dina.

[00:24:08] I help lawyers win in life, whether it's getting more clients, getting promoted, getting along

[00:24:14] with people or getting a new job.

[00:24:17] These are the things I help with, the things that they don't teach us in law school.

[00:24:20] My website is achievementbydesign.com.

[00:24:24] I'm Dina Lethkowitz on LinkedIn, and I'm very active.

[00:24:27] I have over 20,000 followers and I'd love some more.

[00:24:30] And I'm the author of this award-winning book, Winning in Your Own Court, 10 Laws for a Successful

[00:24:36] Career Without Burning Out or Selling Out.

[00:24:38] And I would love to hear from you.

[00:24:40] I love working with lawyers.

[00:24:42] I love helping people with their careers.

[00:24:44] And I'd love to help you.

[00:24:46] Well, Dina, great job.

[00:24:47] I really appreciate you being here and sharing your wisdom.

[00:24:50] And I can't wait to have you back on the show in the future.

[00:24:52] Thank you so much for being here today, Dina.

[00:24:54] Thank you.

[00:24:58] Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:25:02] For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website

[00:25:08] at attorneysearchgroup.com.

[00:25:11] To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting,

[00:25:16] or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.