TRP 222: High-Level Relationships with Joff Sharpe

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high-stakes headhunter, author, and professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:23] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love.

[00:00:27] There's a phrase that you may have heard of called, who dares wins?

[00:00:31] If you've heard that phrase, you might be familiar with the SAS, also known as the Special Air Service, which is a Special Forces unit of the British Army founded in 1941.

[00:00:41] Our guest today is a former officer in the SAS.

[00:00:45] He's also the author of Who Dares Wins in Business?

[00:00:49] His name is Joff Sharpe.

[00:00:51] What I like about this book, especially if you're interested in military history, is that there are several key concepts that Joff learned early on in his career as a military professional that applies to his career in business, and those principles have given him success.

[00:01:07] Joff is an advisor, he's an angel investor, he's a consultant, and he's also the author of Who Dares Wins in Business?

[00:01:15] And he's our guest today on our podcast.

[00:01:18] Our topic is high-level relationships, and we're really talking about those things that Joff learned that helped him to build trust with individuals.

[00:01:27] In Joff's career, he mentions that he keeps working with the same people over and over again in different areas and different companies, that once you build that relationship, that trust is there, and it continues with you.

[00:01:40] Make sure you connect with Joff, visit the show notes, no matter where you listen to the show, and we put Joff's contact info there, as well as the link to order Joff's book, Who Dares Wins in Business, which I'd highly recommend.

[00:01:53] As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal intelligence suite of products, Firmscape, and Leopard BI.

[00:02:02] Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard.

[00:02:05] And now here's my interview with Joff Sharp.

[00:02:07] Thanks for listening.

[00:02:10] Hey, this is Scott Love.

[00:02:11] Thanks for joining me on the Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:02:13] My special guest today is Joff Sharp.

[00:02:16] And Joff, I'm excited to have you here today.

[00:02:18] Thank you for joining me on the show.

[00:02:20] My pleasure.

[00:02:21] Now, Joff, I love your book.

[00:02:22] I've read it.

[00:02:23] Who Dares Wins in Business?

[00:02:26] What can I say?

[00:02:26] I'm a fan.

[00:02:27] You can't resist the subtitle, Fighting Back the SAS Way.

[00:02:31] And what I found was that there's a lot of lessons in business that you give us in your book.

[00:02:36] So first, thanks for the generosity of your wisdom.

[00:02:40] My pleasure.

[00:02:40] Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:41] Enjoyed it.

[00:02:42] Absolutely.

[00:02:42] It's great.

[00:02:43] And so, and I learned a lot.

[00:02:45] It was really interesting.

[00:02:46] And even like you mentioned in your book, you can turn anywhere and learn something.

[00:02:49] That's exactly right.

[00:02:50] You just open up the pages.

[00:02:51] And wow, there's an interesting story where you learn something from that.

[00:02:55] But let's get right to it.

[00:02:56] Our topic today is high-level relationships.

[00:02:59] How to maneuver fluidly among sophisticated executives.

[00:03:04] And I like the fact that that is your world.

[00:03:07] And if there's one thing you think our listeners should know about how to maneuver among sophisticated people, what do you think that one thing would be?

[00:03:15] What do you think we should start with, Joff?

[00:03:17] It's probably the word ownership.

[00:03:19] And I think when you consider high-level people, they have different motivations.

[00:03:24] And you can be a very well-remunerated person, but not as powerful as you might imagine.

[00:03:29] But once you get into the world of senior equity partners, family offices, chief executives, the people who are dependent on progress and decisions, and they don't get credit simply for cranking the handle.

[00:03:42] Those are the really interesting people.

[00:03:45] And then you can operate more directly with them to actually solve their problems.

[00:03:49] Yeah, right, right.

[00:03:50] Do you think that they put impediments to get you to know them if it's someone that you just don't yet know?

[00:03:58] Do you find it's harder to get to know those people compared to other people in organizations?

[00:04:02] I think it's a privilege to know those people.

[00:04:04] So they don't give that currency away lightly.

[00:04:07] But also the most successful people tend to be pretty good at spotting talent, for example, or spotting organizational opportunity.

[00:04:15] And so they are, you know, if you have something genuine to offer them, they're more likely to spot that quickly and to capitalize on it.

[00:04:23] Yeah, that's great.

[00:04:24] So I like the fact you talk about currency.

[00:04:27] What do you mean by that exactly?

[00:04:28] And why did you use that word?

[00:04:29] Well, I think it's just a matter of what matters to these folks and, you know, where they are in their career.

[00:04:36] They're not trying to make their way as corporate journeymen and build equity just for the sake of their own personal progress.

[00:04:46] They're becoming quite focused on the outcome that's required of their entity.

[00:04:51] And I think that shapes their worldview.

[00:04:53] It shapes their behavior.

[00:04:55] It shapes what their expectations are from the people that they're dealing with.

[00:05:00] And, you know, and you need to tap into that.

[00:05:03] Yeah, right.

[00:05:04] Do you think that somebody that's listening to this show and they want to get in front of family office executives, CEOs, private equity partners, what do you think the best avenue is to get in front of people like that?

[00:05:19] What's been your experience?

[00:05:20] I think it depends on where they are.

[00:05:25] I mean, there are some people, for example, in the world of education.

[00:05:27] I mean, if you're talking about technology, AI and those sorts of things, very often the most advanced thinking is actually within the educational world.

[00:05:36] Sometimes it can be in the world of politics.

[00:05:40] So it's not always, you know, it's not always sort of hardcore technology consulting people where the very brightest minds are because you need to be in a place where there's innovation, there's R&D, and there's, you know, there's sort of an application of some of this thinking.

[00:05:54] So I think it depends on where you're coming from.

[00:05:57] If you're a junior person, I mean, directly you can get mentored and you can, I mean, most good companies have, for example, my youngest son now works for the Financial Times.

[00:06:08] He was given the opportunity to be mentored by pretty much whoever he wanted to be in the company.

[00:06:14] And he's involved in the design side of these papers.

[00:06:17] And they said, well, if you wanted to have a C-suite person, you're very welcome to, but you might actually get more out of a relationship with somebody more functionally, directly connected with what you do.

[00:06:26] And that would probably move your career on even quicker.

[00:06:29] And so that's the route that he's taking, for example.

[00:06:31] So, you know, there's some mutuality in all this.

[00:06:34] There's figuring out the most relevant routes to your, you know, whatever your individual goals are.

[00:06:40] Not always necessarily the most senior person who will have very limited time by definition.

[00:06:47] But I think if you have a unique skill set and you can, you know, you can add the maximum value and take part in some of those young leadership programs or whatever it is that's contained within your company or your entity and make yourself known to these people.

[00:07:03] Yeah, that's great.

[00:07:04] One thing I would mention is that the average tenure in a big organization now is 3.9 years for women and four years for men.

[00:07:14] Rightly or wrongly.

[00:07:15] So whereas when you and I started our careers a long time ago, you could probably have a model of sort of gradually grinding your way up through the corporation.

[00:07:22] I mean, I guess another thing to answer your question directly is you're going to have to be reasonably quick and direct if you want to come to the notice of some senior people.

[00:07:30] Because you're just not going to have 20 years, as I say, to sort of gradually become known.

[00:07:34] Yeah, I like that.

[00:07:36] And I think that's a good perspective.

[00:07:37] If somebody is in an organization and they really want to make a difference and be a contributor, I think it's knowing that they are the kind of person that has that special skill set, like you mentioned, that can get the job done, be effective, but also somebody that they can trust.

[00:07:51] Let me ask you this, Geoff.

[00:07:53] You've done a lot of interesting things in your world and you've circled, built circles around you of interesting people.

[00:08:00] Tell me a story, and you don't have to mention who it is.

[00:08:02] What is one key, significant, sophisticated business relationship where that person has come to depend on you as a service provider?

[00:08:12] Kind of tell us about that story.

[00:08:14] How did you make contact with that person?

[00:08:17] And what was the event that transpired where that person began to trust you more?

[00:08:23] And then how did you develop it from there?

[00:08:26] Yeah.

[00:08:27] Well, let me answer the question in a slightly strange way.

[00:08:32] I mean, I've done repeat business with quite a few people.

[00:08:35] I mean, the guy I'm working for at the moment, this is the second time I've worked for him.

[00:08:40] And there was a two-year gap between these pieces of work.

[00:08:44] And one was due diligence on acquisition.

[00:08:46] Another was more to do with hiring chief executives.

[00:08:49] I had a boss who I worked for in a newspaper company.

[00:08:54] He became a senior partner in a private equity firm.

[00:08:57] He then hired my new boss to run one of his portfolio companies.

[00:09:03] And I found myself in a surreal situation of brokering a conversation between two of my previous bosses, one being the private equity partner, the other being the new chief executive.

[00:09:13] And then I subsequently did work for both of them separately as well as together.

[00:09:19] So I've spent time building relationships.

[00:09:23] And similarly, I have one lady who is junior to me, if I may use that expression.

[00:09:31] And we have worked together in five different companies.

[00:09:33] And I find her an incredibly diligent and versatile and charismatic individual.

[00:09:40] And I've just had a whole bunch of opportunities and said to her, look, you know, how do you feel about this opportunity?

[00:09:45] Would this help you to grow?

[00:09:47] And each time it's been mutually beneficial.

[00:09:49] So, again, I'm not picking out one individual, which I know is the question you asked.

[00:09:53] But I've had a pattern in my career of kind of doing repeat business with colleagues, with subordinates and with senior people.

[00:10:01] And then your question, which is, well, what's the secret sauce?

[00:10:05] You know, what enables you to do that?

[00:10:07] I think it's when you invest time with people, they learn what you're good at.

[00:10:13] And there are things that I'm good at and there are things that I'm definitely not good at.

[00:10:16] I'm not particularly a great diplomat.

[00:10:19] But I am very good at figuring out what organizations need to improve and staffing them with very good and appropriate people.

[00:10:26] And over time, people have got to associate that with me.

[00:10:30] And they've also seen me innovate.

[00:10:32] They've seen me invent a couple of companies, which I've run very successfully.

[00:10:35] So, the more they see you in action and they can see what you do, the more they can make a judgment about whether that specific skill set and set of attributes is what they need at a point in time.

[00:10:46] And it isn't always.

[00:10:47] I mean, there are probably people who would sing my praises, but it doesn't mean they'd employ me for all things in all situations.

[00:10:53] So, what I hear you telling me, the one big takeaway I got out of that was you've got to know what that special skill is.

[00:11:00] What is that unique value that you have?

[00:11:02] Where can you be most useful to those sophisticated people?

[00:11:06] I think that's number one.

[00:11:07] Number two, I think you've got to put yourself in their path.

[00:11:10] You've got to stay in touch with them.

[00:11:12] You've got to be able to find ways to stay connected with them so that they know where you are.

[00:11:15] They know what you're up to.

[00:11:16] They can reach out to you.

[00:11:23] An attorney, investment management, or investment banking, a management consultant.

[00:11:28] What do you think the pitfalls are that they need to avoid?

[00:11:31] Things that keep them from building those relationships with sophisticated people.

[00:11:36] I guess taking some of the people you've talked about, if you're an owner of something, it doesn't necessarily make you an operator.

[00:11:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:11:47] And you can be very clever in the world of financial services and all the governance that goes around that.

[00:11:54] It doesn't necessarily give you empathy for what can be quite a mundane or highly operational and practical entity that you then choose to acquire.

[00:12:02] So, I think you've got to decide what is your relationship going to be with that entity and the different private equity houses.

[00:12:10] I mean, I can tell you for a fact some of them are very interventionist.

[00:12:12] Some of them are much more hands-off.

[00:12:14] You know, they'll have a long view and they'll just hold something.

[00:12:17] Others will want to immediately start to shape it, you know, to bolt on new acquisitions or to downsize or do all the things that, you know, private equity companies have done over the years.

[00:12:26] And I think the important thing is just to establish, you know, what is that?

[00:12:29] What is the goal?

[00:12:30] What is the relationship going to be?

[00:12:32] And then assemble a management team who are going to behave in a way which is commensurate with that ambition.

[00:12:38] You know, it might be total reinvention.

[00:12:40] It might actually be just managing a business very competently to throw off cash.

[00:12:45] It might be that you know from the get-go you're going to do, you know, a conglomerate of multiple smaller acquisitions.

[00:12:50] So, you need people with the skills to put disparate groups and brands together in an effective way and so on.

[00:12:55] So, I think it's all to do with having that strategic perspective on, you know, what you're trying to accomplish, what kind of people are going to help you to do that over what timescale, getting that right.

[00:13:05] That's great.

[00:13:06] Tell me about someone that you've met in business that has done a good job of doing just that, of really putting themselves in a spot where they know what their value is.

[00:13:15] They know what they're really, really good at.

[00:13:16] They're able to make good decisions about who they surround themselves with and how have they been able to take their personal brand, so to speak, and push it out there.

[00:13:27] Maybe not like through email campaigns, but just to stay connected with those sophisticated prospects.

[00:13:33] Who are some people that you've seen that have done a good job with that?

[00:13:36] Yeah, I don't know if I want to name names.

[00:13:38] I can think of one individual, and he immediately springs to mind when you're talking, because annoyingly, when I was talking to different headhunters about different roles over a period of years, his name always seemed to come up.

[00:13:51] He was a Dutchman, I'll tell you that.

[00:13:53] So, he's a classic Dutchman speaking about 100 different languages.

[00:13:56] And he's been in all sorts of different industries, so you can do a bit of your own triangulation and figure out who I'm talking about.

[00:14:02] But he was always mentioned by headhunters as being the go-to guy, no matter what your problem was that needed to be solved.

[00:14:10] And generally, in and around technology, but he is not a hardcore technologist per se.

[00:14:16] And I think what's interesting about him is quite often, again, if you're talking about private ownership, and this is a sort of dirty secret of private ownership,

[00:14:26] very often, people who invest consider they've taken risk with the money.

[00:14:31] And therefore, when it comes to the people who run their assets, they tend to go for very low-risk solutions.

[00:14:37] So, in other words, they might say, you know, I want to hire a new CEO who's done pretty much the same set of jobs for the last 25 years.

[00:14:44] They may not set the world on fire, but they're not going to screw up.

[00:14:46] They're just going to kind of do roughly what I want them to do without making any serious mistakes.

[00:14:51] And they've done the gambling with the money beforehand.

[00:14:56] Now, there are one or two people who have managed to persuade the private equity community that they are sufficiently versatile.

[00:15:02] And this Joshman is one of those people.

[00:15:03] That he can be effectively played in multiple scenarios, whether it's, you know, everything from a shoe shop to a telephone company.

[00:15:10] It's like, well, he's going to be the guy.

[00:15:12] And I think that tells you he has strategic versatility.

[00:15:15] He's proven his ability to look at companies of different sizes in different sectors at different points in their evolution and figure out what is the medicine that this company is going to need at this point.

[00:15:26] And to do it in a way which is simultaneously vigorous, but also acceptable to the people within those companies.

[00:15:35] And he's been very successful.

[00:15:37] And I can think of lots, but he's just one model, I think, of what you're talking about.

[00:15:42] So tell me this, Josh.

[00:15:44] What I want to do now is kind of go into the SAS.

[00:15:46] And in your book, Who Dares Wins in Business, I like the fact that you kind of give the history of the SAS, that the history itself really kind of stayed connected with the whole culture of the organization.

[00:15:58] But what were some of the things that you learned in the SAS that have stayed with you in being able to be effective at earning trust from sophisticated executives, people like that?

[00:16:10] Yeah, well, the book is sort of post-rational in the sense that I wrote it after I'd been a civilian for about 20, 25 years or something.

[00:16:18] Right.

[00:16:18] But I get that.

[00:16:19] The lessons stay with you, though, right?

[00:16:21] Well, yeah, exactly.

[00:16:22] So, I mean, I had 10 years in the Army, learned all these lessons and was very interested even then in all the culture and the history and all that sort of stuff.

[00:16:28] So I sort of was very imbued in that.

[00:16:31] And then I decided that I would, you know, once I was a bona fide civilian two decades later, I felt that I could write a book about the Army without people telling me that, you know, I'm an Army boar.

[00:16:41] And if I liked it so much, why don't I just stay in the Army in the first place?

[00:16:44] So I wrote this book and I tried to distill in the book those things which translate most easily between this particularly interesting special forces unit and business in general.

[00:16:55] And I kind of articulated in the book what those principles are.

[00:16:59] And the sort of the bold headings, you know, one is to do with the foundations.

[00:17:03] It's the culture and it's the people and it's the meaning and it's the, you know, what is it that this thing actually is designed to do?

[00:17:09] And making sure people are appropriate and aligned around those objectives.

[00:17:14] Then there are some things around how this organization executes.

[00:17:18] For example, with speed, which is a whole interesting topic in its own right.

[00:17:23] Right. Then there's something about reinvention and versatility because circumstances change all the time, of course.

[00:17:29] And then the last point, which is a very popular topic of conversation.

[00:17:33] You know, you can talk about resilience or you can talk about mental health or you can talk about COVID or you can talk about whatever.

[00:17:39] But I mean, people are very preoccupied with this idea of, you know, dealing with all that life throws at you.

[00:17:46] And this is an organization that, you know, has as one of its principles the idea that if you're going to take risk,

[00:17:52] I mean, who dares wins, if you think about it, is not always true.

[00:17:56] I mean, if you're daring by definition, occasionally you're going to get a bloody nose.

[00:18:00] So if you're going to be daring, you've got to have the capacity to cope with when things don't go your way without feeling so sorry for yourself that you never recover.

[00:18:10] So there are lots of things in there that I find are entirely applicable.

[00:18:15] And some of them are specific with special forces.

[00:18:18] And some of the things that you would have learned as a naval officer a long time ago.

[00:18:21] And, you know, basic things about leadership and making sure you're addressing both the tasks, the needs of the team and the needs of the individuals within the team.

[00:18:29] It's kind of an obvious thing.

[00:18:31] But quite often in business, though, you know, you see those three things aren't always simultaneously addressed by leaders.

[00:18:37] Yeah, exactly right.

[00:18:39] Exactly right.

[00:18:39] I really like the fact that you talk about key business concepts with the SAS where you learn some of those.

[00:18:46] And by the way, for everybody listening, we're going to put the link where you can get Joff's book directly off the web.

[00:18:51] I'd highly recommend it, even if you're not in business, so to speak.

[00:18:54] It's just an interesting book about how organizations work with an interesting context to it.

[00:19:00] So I appreciate you taking the time to share that, Joff.

[00:19:03] Thanks.

[00:19:03] Yeah.

[00:19:04] So let me let me ask you this.

[00:19:05] If we could summarize what we're talking about here, earning trust from sophisticated people, and if we could say there's three action steps that somebody can take, step one, step two, step three, to get better at earning trust from people like that and being able to work effectively in those circles.

[00:19:23] What do you think those three action steps would be, Joff?

[00:19:26] Well, I think I'm trying to avoid giving you the kind of answer that a management consultant would give you because they always talk about, you know, find out who the senior stakeholders are is always a sort of go-to catchphrase, isn't it?

[00:19:36] It's kind of unattractive.

[00:19:37] I think it's something about identifying the people who are in a position and motivated to make some progress.

[00:19:45] And I won't digress into all the foibles of all these different organizations, but you've got to figure out who is the person who's actually going to make some decisions.

[00:19:53] That's the first thing.

[00:19:55] And then logically enough, you've got to identify whether you're in a position to offer them those skills and those attributes at a point in time.

[00:20:02] And then you've got to be skillful and diplomatic in bringing those things together in a way that they find attractive.

[00:20:08] And, you know, like any good sales proposition, you and I were sharing a bit of banter before the program.

[00:20:13] I mean, it's not always a matter of directly pitching and selling.

[00:20:17] Sometimes what you try to do is to, you know, build some rapport, find some common ground, some mutual interest.

[00:20:22] And then at the right time, you suggest, you say, look, it sounds to me now that I've got to know you a little bit that you're wrestling with, you know, digitization of your business or whatever it is.

[00:20:30] Could I introduce you to this very high powered person or could I offer you the skill set that I have that I think might be helpful?

[00:20:38] And, you know, and senior and accomplished people like that.

[00:20:41] And they, because they find that you're, you know, maybe it's a bit egocentric, but you're solving their problem, not your problem.

[00:20:47] And that's, that's the unlocking device.

[00:20:50] Yeah, I get that, Josh.

[00:20:51] I think that's very helpful to be reminded that.

[00:20:54] Thank you for being on the show.

[00:20:55] Is there anything that you'd like for our listeners to know about you, about offerings that you have, things that you could do for them?

[00:21:01] And by the way, for everybody listening, we're going to put all of Joff's contact info on the show notes.

[00:21:07] Well, it's very kind of you.

[00:21:07] I mean, if anyone wants to buy my book, they're more than welcome.

[00:21:10] But really, I mean, my bread and butter daily business is around putting talented people in touch with these owners and hence a lot of the context of our conversation today.

[00:21:21] So I think if you are, you know, you're a head of a family office or you're a senior person in a private equity fund and you would like a somewhat alternative and direct approach to seeking talent, please get in touch.

[00:21:36] And I would be glad to help you with your quest.

[00:21:39] That's great, Joff.

[00:21:39] Thank you so much for being on the show.

[00:21:41] Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

[00:21:43] And I'd love to have you back on the show here in the near future.

[00:21:46] Terrific.

[00:21:46] Thanks for having me.

[00:21:47] Thank you for listening to The Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:21:54] For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com.

[00:22:03] To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention, conference, sales meeting or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.

[00:22:13] Thank you.

[00:22:13] Thank you.