TRP 214: Selling in a Post-Trust World with Larry Levine

[00:00:10] You're listening to the Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high stakes head under author and professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:24] You're listening to the Rainmaking Podcast, and this is Scott Love. Thanks for joining me on this show.

[00:00:29] Have you discovered that it's a little bit harder to earn influence and trust with client prospects?

[00:00:34] I think part of that is because the marketplace pretty much in any professional service industry has gotten so much more crowded.

[00:00:40] I also think that we're living in a post-trust world.

[00:00:45] And in fact, our guest today is Larry Levine, the author of the book, Selling in a Post-Trust World.

[00:00:53] If you're someone in the business of selling your professional services, whether you call it sales or client development,

[00:00:58] it doesn't matter. I believe this show is going to give you meaningful, tangible value.

[00:01:02] In fact, one of the things that Larry talks with me about is a formula that he created,

[00:01:08] which I think is very deep in terms of how you understand why people trust and how you can influence other people in a meaningful, authentic way,

[00:01:19] just by following that formula.

[00:01:21] Toon into the episode to learn more, as always this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal intelligence, suite of products, firm escape and leopard bi.

[00:01:31] Push ahead of the pack with the power of leopard.

[00:01:33] And by the way, if you get a chance to connect with Larry, we'll put all of his contact information and link in link on the show notes.

[00:01:41] Wherever you listen to the podcast, go to the show notes.

[00:01:44] And if you get a chance, I'd appreciate it and I know Larry would, if you write a nice five star review on Apple Podcasts reviews of the podcast.

[00:01:52] Mention Larry by name. Thanks for listening, and I hope that you enjoy my conversation with Larry.

[00:01:58] Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rain Making podcast. I've got a special guest for you today.

[00:02:04] We've got Larry Levine, he's the author of selling from the heart and also the author of his latest book,

[00:02:10] which is what we're talking about today, selling in a post-trust world.

[00:02:15] Larry, thanks for joining me on the Rain Making podcast today.

[00:02:18] Oh, it's my pleasure. You know what Scott, I've been looking forward to this for a long time since my dear friend, he warns the interviewist us.

[00:02:24] Absolutely right. And for everybody listening, if you want to have a really interesting conversation in your head with you, horns be go back about two months and listen to his interview because it's really deep.

[00:02:34] And I think what you bring us today Larry is deep also and a love the topic title and I'm looking at your book on the Kindle right here.

[00:02:41] Oh, that looks so good about that.

[00:02:43] Selling in a post-trust world and I thought you've got it.

[00:02:47] And I think in 2008, that's when trust stops in America. I think that's when it really things changed.

[00:02:53] But you give the formula for how professionals can earn trust from other people.

[00:03:00] So let me kind of ask you this, what is it that you think keeps people from trusting those in business development?

[00:03:08] What do you, let's kind of look at that. What are the impediments to trust from what you've seen so far?

[00:03:12] Oh, I mean here's a first couple things got that comes to mind. Broken promises and bad track records.

[00:03:20] Right. Right.

[00:03:22] And that's just think through this for a moment is your words everything.

[00:03:27] And when I start thinking about this is I start thinking about integrity.

[00:03:32] And regardless of what career you have, if you want to start building mad and we'll break down the trust formula.

[00:03:39] Thank you for bringing it to the forefront in our conversation.

[00:03:43] But when you start thinking about how do you build trust from the get go?

[00:03:48] Start thinking about leading your life with integrity, authenticity being congruent with it.

[00:03:55] And when I say integrity, I'm talking about doing the right things, even if it costs you.

[00:04:00] Yeah. That's right.

[00:04:01] And that's tough in a business development role when you got to close the sale. You got to get the deal right?

[00:04:08] And I like how you went. I'm going to read an excerpt from your book and I like how you talked about currency.

[00:04:14] You brought an idea that we all know it's tangible. I know what currency is.

[00:04:19] As a society, the currency of how we relate to each other has changed including sales.

[00:04:26] I believe the currency of sales or you can say business development is measured in specific outcomes.

[00:04:32] Memories and experiences. I mean, right there memories and experiences.

[00:04:37] And I thought, and I like how you weave this in your book, we can actually use experiences as a way to build trust with people.

[00:04:44] And you go on, you say professional sporting events and amusement parks to a tremendous job.

[00:04:56] But anybody thinks of is Disney because you've got the memories.

[00:05:01] And so despite the ever increasing price of admission, people continue to go year after year at record rates.

[00:05:08] There's zero price negotiation. Why? Because they have successfully mastered and capturing memories and experiences, transcending monetary value.

[00:05:16] And as a minimum, $5,000 each trip. I mean, come on.

[00:05:20] Just come on really.

[00:05:24] No, it's so true. By the way, I'm really glad you brought this up because people will pay handsomely for inspirational experiences, which is the third leg of the trust formula.

[00:05:38] They're also going to pay handsomely for memories.

[00:05:41] And we got to set aside regardless, right?

[00:05:43] Whether you're in professional services where you're in sales with your business development, it really doesn't matter.

[00:05:48] Set all of that aside. People will come back for more and they will come back for more. If you create not just an experience, but an inspirational experience.

[00:06:00] And you capture the memories. But unfortunately, it goes back to the very beginning of our conversation Scott. Unfortunately, now here's a room for improvement.

[00:06:10] Most of the memories that people have captured about whether that be business development, people whether that be somebody in professional services, whether that be somebody in sales is probably filled with more negative outcomes than positive outcomes.

[00:06:25] That's the opportunity for us to integrate the foundations of the trust formula to help change the course of how they think about you is why I believe perceptions reality.

[00:06:37] That's great. Let me ask you this. And for everybody listening, we're going to put Larry's book links on the show notes, wherever you're listening to the show, go to the show notes, you'll be able to get his book.

[00:06:48] And what is like 20 bucks six to the universe right here, right?

[00:06:51] Yes, you can see the universe. The 20 bucks.

[00:06:54] And so let me ask you then, what is this formula? How would you kind of break it down? What are the different components of it and how do those enter relate with each other?

[00:07:01] They all interrelate. They hear, you know, I'm going to take you back and then we're going to spring forward. Okay, good. If we took the foundation, my first book, which is selling from the heart how your authentic self sells you that creates the foundation.

[00:07:15] Yeah, and then that's going to help you build trust. So if you bring your authentic self to the forefront, then we're going to build trust in a post trust world in four ways.

[00:07:28] Thus, the trust formula, the first part of this, God's authentic relationships or AR.

[00:07:34] And when I think of authentic relationships, I think about congruency. The walks got to match the talk.

[00:07:41] And here's what's interesting. This is the opportunity everybody has. Humans are messy and relationships are messy.

[00:07:49] Yeah, and we got to understand how to build those relationships. Here's my ask of everybody out there who's listening. What do you really know about your customers?

[00:08:01] What do you know about them personally? What do you know about them professionally? What are their goals? They're vision. Their dreams or aspirations?

[00:08:08] Where do they see themselves a year from now? Where do they see their business a year from now? That's my challenge to everybody in unpacking authentic relationships.

[00:08:15] Then we got to combine it with what I call meaningful value, which is MV.

[00:08:21] Yeah. And my friends out there, AR authentic relationships plus MV that's two sides of the trust coin. You got to have both.

[00:08:29] You got to bring business smarts. You got to bring business conversation. You got to bring ideas and insights to the conversation, to the relationship.

[00:08:38] Now, here's the conundrum. There's a lot of people out there that fall into this trap Scott. They fall into, I want to be liked and I want to be friends.

[00:08:49] And they worry about that because of all the negative connotations that surround whether that be someone in professional services business development and or sales.

[00:08:58] When we get caught in that zone, we got a lot of friends and we're broke.

[00:09:02] Yeah. We got to bring meaningful value to the forefront to bridge that gap.

[00:09:09] It's still a business. And it's tough because, you know, there's people, hey, I'm going to tell you this right now.

[00:09:19] I want to be liked and I want to be friends with people.

[00:09:22] But in a business setting, I want to be viewed as someone who's trustworthy and credible.

[00:09:26] And the way you do that is you bring meaningful value, bring business substance to the forefront.

[00:09:32] And then the next leg of the trust formula plays on the great quote that you get that you shared out of my book around experiences.

[00:09:39] If you want to add jet fuel to the trust formula, this is inspirational experiences.

[00:09:45] Let me ask you this when you say that and a business context, what has that mean?

[00:09:50] Inspiration looks great.

[00:09:51] But it's not. No, a great question. And this is, this is where I want to take everyone's mind just for a moment.

[00:09:58] Sure. If we had just said experiences, right? So if I said and this was the logic in putting together the trust formula is if I said authentic relationships plus meaningful value times an experience.

[00:10:13] Hey, I'm missing a letter because it just rose everything off.

[00:10:17] But when I say, hey, describing experience that you've had with and then I can fill in the blank, well, that experience could be positive or that experience could be negative.

[00:10:30] However, if I throw an inspirational experience in front of that or inspiration in front of that, yeah, and I ask somebody to describe your last inspirational experience you had with

[00:10:43] and what did that look like? You can't go down the negative road on this because inspiration,

[00:10:49] Von I think it inspiration, I think a leadership.

[00:10:52] And leaders inspired influence to help people see and achieve things they don't believe they can do on their own.

[00:10:58] Guess what? That's professional services. That's business development. That's sales.

[00:11:03] You're inspiring somebody, which means you got to bring some passion and you got to bring some purpose behind what you do.

[00:11:10] Thus, this is why I believe y'all hear me out on this. This is why I believe you are 100% responsible for how you show up.

[00:11:20] Yeah. And I know that's deep stuff, but it's the real deal stuff.

[00:11:26] It's you got to build those authentic relationships which is who you know. You got to bring meaningful value and that's what you know.

[00:11:34] And the gasoline on this, which is the fun part of this, Scott, is how you show up with inspiration, with passion, with purpose.

[00:11:45] And then you got to combine it with the last one with discipline habits and discipline habits is tough stuff. That's the hard work.

[00:11:52] That's consistency. That's holding yourself accountable to bringing all three of those to the forefront.

[00:11:57] Got it. So we've got authentic relationships and that's what is at AR times in the times meaningful value. Is that right?

[00:12:05] It's actually AR. It's a simple math equation. I don't know why I came up with a math equation because I stunk it math, but it's authentic relationships AR plus.

[00:12:15] So you got to add it. It's okay. Plus meaningful value and then the accelerators. That's why we call them the multipliers. It's got times IE times DH discipline habits.

[00:12:26] It's all broken out in the book. Good. Good. Well, tell me a story of somebody that you worked with.

[00:12:32] Maybe it's a company or sales executive and you don't have to mention their name, of course.

[00:12:35] But what was your situation before you started working with them? How did you help them in each of these areas? Authentic relationships, meaningful inspiration, experience, discipline habits.

[00:12:46] What action steps do they take to make those changes and what were the results?

[00:12:50] Oh, great question. I'm going to zero in. I'm going to zero in on one aspect of the trust one because I think it's in a business context sales context. It really doesn't matter.

[00:13:01] I think this is the meat behind this and it's meaningful value.

[00:13:06] Yeah. And I think of the sales person out there, and I do a lot of work in the hospitality industry.

[00:13:13] Obviously, I mean, it just hospitality thrives on experiences, hospitality thrives on inspirational experiences.

[00:13:20] So I do a lot of work in that space with sellers and I happen to do a lot of work in the food services industry.

[00:13:28] And about a year or so ago, I started coaching as a test pilot just to prove out the trust formula.

[00:13:34] I got a, I got one of their operating companies to wave a flag and say, hey, we'll give this a test ride.

[00:13:42] We won't give you all our sales people, but we'll give you a handful of sales people you prove this out.

[00:13:47] So I took a group of sales people on a journey for 90 days around how to integrate the trust fondly day in the life of the seller.

[00:13:56] And I had a couple of Debbie doubters on their right. You always do. They're the ones that are sitting in the background,

[00:14:01] 10 years sales people roll in their eyes going, why am I here? So that was one of them.

[00:14:07] But by the end of it, this person was highly engaged, highly, highly engaged.

[00:14:13] And we had a great time together, fast forward about three months ago.

[00:14:18] I get a call from his VPS sales. This person has now become their number one sales person in their operating company.

[00:14:25] And I go, that is freaking fantastic. Tell me more. He owes it all to you.

[00:14:31] And I go, you got to be kidding me. Come on dude, right? And he goes, no, he owes it all to you.

[00:14:36] I'll let him tell you his results.

[00:14:39] I hopped on a call with this person. He increased his revenue 25 and I know the number is embedded in my head.

[00:14:47] 25.37% year over year. He increased his revenue $1.4 million. He finished the year at $7.5 million in revenue.

[00:14:58] So when I asked him, what did he attribute it to? And he goes, I wrote down five things that you coached us on every single day.

[00:15:07] And every morning, I held myself accountable to achieving. And I said, fantastic. Wow, I can't believe it.

[00:15:13] But what part of the trust formula stuck out the most? This person said, meaningful value. And I said, why? And he goes, I thought I was building really good relationships with my clients.

[00:15:25] But you challenged me to ask deeper questions. You challenged me to bring business substance to him. You challenged me to bring some new ideas for the relationship that I wasn't bringing before and I got deep with my customers.

[00:15:39] Wow. And I attribute my growth to building authentic relationships and bringing meaningful value.

[00:15:47] I knew the inspirational experience I'm already disciplined person, but you challenged me. You made me uncomfortable in how to ask deep questions.

[00:15:56] How to bring something to the forefront to get somebody to think.

[00:16:02] Let me ask you this with these with existing customers or clients, or was it with mostly new businesses?

[00:16:08] What do you think? It was existing, however, however.

[00:16:14] I'm a massive believer in growing new business. But you don't grow new business at the expense of your customers. You grow new business through your customers.

[00:16:23] Yeah, that's right. And call this low hanging fruit, right? As a, you know, just put some air quotes around low hanging fruit.

[00:16:31] When you build authentic relationships and bring meaningful value and inspirational experience in your discipline with it, inside your customer base.

[00:16:42] Mark my word on this, you will monumentally grow your business. Inside your customer base.

[00:16:50] Your customer base is then going to help you grow your business outside your customer base because they know people who know people who know people.

[00:17:01] And they go, hey, you know what? This guy's Scott. Man, he's building a relationship like none other.

[00:17:07] Basically, he's building relationships like no other salesperson I've ever seen.

[00:17:11] No other business development person, no other professional services person. But you know what?

[00:17:16] Scott's bringing something to the table that no one else is bringing.

[00:17:19] And that is Scott's get me to see my business in a completely different light because he's getting the out of my business.

[00:17:27] And he's getting me to think about my business moving forward. That's powerful stuff.

[00:17:34] Yeah, there's several lessons I want to kind of pick up on what you said Larry, is that.

[00:17:39] And I like what you said, we always want to get new business. And my philosophy is that the day you sign a client just like I've seen on madman, my favorite show.

[00:17:47] That's the start to lose them. And so you want to do everything you can to preserve and maintain that relationship.

[00:17:53] But you always want to be looking for more business because then it becomes better business.

[00:17:58] And then you can drop the bottom 10% every year.

[00:18:01] Those it's just there's not a fit. They're not paying you on time. They're difficult to work with. You're always going to get that let them go.

[00:18:07] You have that funnel. And then what you said going into the existing clients let them help you connect with the new ones.

[00:18:14] And I like the fact that the meaningful value summed up through deeper questions.

[00:18:19] And I've always discovered that people make a judgment about you based on the quality of questions that you ask.

[00:18:26] It's not like you're getting information also you are, but also they're making a judgment based on those meaningful questions.

[00:18:32] But there are any examples you can think of that you're coaching client used any examples.

[00:18:39] In terms of questions that they ask clients to grow those relationships to a deeper level.

[00:18:43] Yeah, just so you know this is why I camp on meaningful value. Scott, I'm a high clarity guy.

[00:18:49] I need clarity and I'm highly curious.

[00:18:53] Yeah, and the more questions that I would always ask, the more clarity I got not only into the relationship but how I can help.

[00:19:02] Here's an example and I'm telling you this, this one question alone is the gift that we'll keep on giving and giving and giving.

[00:19:11] And it's as simple as this. Can I use your name in this Scott just first.

[00:19:15] You know, you can say it so if I was talking to Scott and I want everyone who's listening just to think through this as it applies to the industry that's you all call into or you operate in.

[00:19:28] Hey Scott, I'm just curious.

[00:19:31] As you start looking out over the next 90 days.

[00:19:36] What are three things that you need to do right now in order to improve on the next 90 days.

[00:19:45] Operational efficiencies improve how you take better care of your clients improve how your relationships with your clients become better.

[00:19:56] What would those be? Here's another one.

[00:20:00] What are some of the goals that you're working on right now? What are some of the initiatives that you have here at ABC company?

[00:20:07] Yeah, what are three things you need to remove off your business plate right now?

[00:20:12] This is great.

[00:20:13] What are three things you're working on right now that you're involved with?

[00:20:21] This requiring and this is just me because I love going there.

[00:20:25] That's requiring massive amounts of brain power.

[00:20:29] Now some of y'all are going, man, I don't know if I can ask these.

[00:20:32] Reframing however you see fit.

[00:20:35] But when you can ask, you know, what are three things you're working on this quarter?

[00:20:38] What are three things you need to remove off your business plate?

[00:20:41] What are your goals and initiatives here at dot dot dot company over the next 90 days?

[00:20:47] And when you frame these in that term, guess what?

[00:20:51] Then you go back to the following quarter.

[00:20:53] Hey, Scott, what are three things you're working on in the next 90 days that you've got to remove off your business plate?

[00:20:59] Mark my word on this.

[00:21:02] You ask that one question or several of these questions four times a year.

[00:21:07] I'm going to tell you this. You're going to have some very deep conversations with your customers.

[00:21:12] Absolutely right.

[00:21:13] Let me ask you this, Larry. Let's say somebody is like, gosh, that just seems too intrusive.

[00:21:17] I could ask for what's one thing but three things.

[00:21:20] I don't know. What would you say to that person?

[00:21:22] There just hesitant they find that this might be too contrived or intrusive.

[00:21:25] What would you say that person?

[00:21:28] I'd say get out of your head.

[00:21:29] I'd say get out of your head, get in your heart on this one.

[00:21:32] Here's why.

[00:21:33] There's more than one thing folks.

[00:21:37] There is more than one thing.

[00:21:39] And here's what's interesting.

[00:21:41] The number three, there's magical things behind the threes.

[00:21:45] People remember things in threes.

[00:21:49] They really do.

[00:21:50] And I'm not a psychologist behind this but one of it business mentors is behavioral economist by trade.

[00:21:57] Because he's done deep research on it.

[00:21:59] People remember things in threes.

[00:22:01] Now here's how you can play this out for those that might be doubting this.

[00:22:06] When you ask, again, I'm going to go back to Scott.

[00:22:09] Hey, Scott, if you look out over the next 90 days,

[00:22:12] you know, what are three things you need to remove off your business plate?

[00:22:15] I'm going to tell you this, Scott's going to give me one right up front.

[00:22:19] Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:20] So Scott, can you just play along with me?

[00:22:22] Just give me one.

[00:22:23] Just play along with us here.

[00:22:25] If I could say, hey, Scott, if I can get you to look out over the next 90 days,

[00:22:30] you know, what are three things that you're working on right now that you got to remove off your business plate?

[00:22:35] One of them is kind of figuring out my travel schedule.

[00:22:38] That's a pressing one because it's coming into the fall.

[00:22:40] There's a lot of opportunities.

[00:22:42] And I just need to kind of get my schedule figured out.

[00:22:44] That's one thing.

[00:22:45] Awesome.

[00:22:46] Hey, by the way, thank you for sharing me.

[00:22:48] So in addition, in addition to getting your travel schedule all ironed out, what else?

[00:22:53] It's prioritizing my resources and how I'm going to deploy those in the service of which client.

[00:23:01] So kind of getting organized and in terms of doing our work for our clients.

[00:23:07] Awesome.

[00:23:07] Hey, thank you for sharing.

[00:23:08] I appreciate, you know, thank you for sharing.

[00:23:10] In addition to that, you got to give me one more.

[00:23:13] You got to give me one more Scott.

[00:23:15] I'd say looking at the time to grow.

[00:23:18] Should I double down with my existing model or should I be looking to bring on another experience legal recruiter?

[00:23:25] That's that third thing right there.

[00:23:27] Being going.

[00:23:28] Okay, people.

[00:23:29] Hey, he's got thanks for playing along this.

[00:23:32] This is how I'll give everyone a, this gives Scott around of applause.

[00:23:35] Thank you ladies and gentlemen.

[00:23:37] Do you know what?

[00:23:38] You all can do this.

[00:23:40] You all can do this.

[00:23:42] You got to crawl out of your head.

[00:23:43] It's not about you.

[00:23:44] It's about them.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:47] That's great.

[00:23:48] Larry, we're, we're on at a time and speaking of three things.

[00:23:51] If we could summarize what we've talked about.

[00:23:54] I mean, I'd love to have it back on the show because I know there's more we can go deep.

[00:23:58] We could even talk about each of those four legs of the formula.

[00:24:02] But if there were three things that people could do three action steps that they can take to really start implementing some of these ideas.

[00:24:09] What would those three action steps be?

[00:24:12] This is going to be comedy.

[00:24:14] You got to hang with me, everyone.

[00:24:16] Lather, rinse, repeat.

[00:24:19] It's like shampoo, right?

[00:24:21] Digest the book.

[00:24:23] That's Lather.

[00:24:24] Yeah.

[00:24:25] Rinse.

[00:24:27] Think through this.

[00:24:28] How can I apply the trust formula to every facet of what I do?

[00:24:32] And then repeat it every single day, Lather rinse, repeat.

[00:24:37] And I promise you if you do this, watch what starts to happen both to your professional career and your personal life.

[00:24:44] Yeah.

[00:24:45] I love it.

[00:24:46] So step one.

[00:24:47] Read the book.

[00:24:48] Digest.

[00:24:49] Step two.

[00:24:50] Figure out how you can apply it into your daily lives.

[00:24:53] Step three.

[00:24:55] Repeat.

[00:24:55] Continue to do that over time.

[00:24:58] I'm excited about that, Larry.

[00:24:59] And I'm going to put like I mentioned the link to your book on the show notes.

[00:25:03] Tell us about your services, your offerings.

[00:25:06] What do you do outside of being an author that you would like for listeners know about your Larry?

[00:25:10] You know, thanks for asking.

[00:25:12] And what lights my fire and what brings me joy is I believe success happens when I can try to be to greater cause.

[00:25:20] And this greater cause is coaching.

[00:25:23] It's coaching sales leaders, executives, sales people on how to integrate the trust formula into three facets of their business.

[00:25:34] And that's how do you integrate this?

[00:25:35] How do you build trust when it comes to prospecting business development?

[00:25:40] How do you build trust when it comes to what I call client management?

[00:25:44] That's expanding the opportunities inside your client base.

[00:25:48] And then the third part of this is coaching sales people, sales leaders on how to integrate this throughout the sales process.

[00:25:57] That brings me joy.

[00:25:58] That lights my fire is taking and integrating the whole four facets of the trust formula working with sales leaders, sales people and executives on the three facets of the sales journey.

[00:26:10] That's great, Larry.

[00:26:11] Well, Larry, thank you for being a great guest and giving us so much value here on the show.

[00:26:15] I want to have you back on the show in the future.

[00:26:17] Thank you again for being here, Larry.

[00:26:18] Great job.

[00:26:19] It's my pleasure Scott.

[00:26:20] Thank you for interested in your audience.