TRP 212: Give to Grow with Mo Bunnell

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high-stakes headhunter, author and

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening to the Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for joining me on this show, and this is a special episode.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not just that.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an extra special episode because we have a close friend of mine.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: His name is Mo Bunnell on the show.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Not because he's a close friend.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's extra special.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's extra special because we're talking about his latest book, Give to Grow.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Relationships are the foundation of our long-term business success.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: If that's true for you, then I highly recommend Getting Moe's book.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let me tell you a little bit about Moe, and we'll get into the book during my conversation

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: with him.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're in the business of getting clients, if you're a rainmaker, I'd highly

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: recommend listening to this show and ordering Moe's book.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: No matter where you listen to the show, go to where you have the show notes, and you'll

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: be able to access that directly.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll put that there as well as Moe's other links.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But what Moe Bunnell does, he helps complex organizations grow by scaling business

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: development skills across organizations in creating a growth-oriented culture.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He's fantastic, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate you taking the time to listen to this.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: As always, our show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions Legal Intelligence Suite of Products,

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: FirmScape and Leopard BI.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And now here's my conversation with my good friend, Moe Bunnell.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited about having my good friend and a repeat guest on our show today,

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is going to be a treat for you.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Our guest is Moe Bunnell.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He's the author of his latest book, Give to Grow, Invest in Relationships to Build

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Your Business and Your Career.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's our topic for today.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Moe, thanks for joining me on the show.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, hey, if we can help your audience grow their book of business and their

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: relationships, that's a good outcome.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's do it.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely right.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And before we do that, tell me this.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of envisioning somebody that can really benefit from our conversation today.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: How would you describe that person's role?

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are we really talking to today?

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say anybody that has one foot in the delivery of some complicated expertise

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and another foot in retention and growth skills.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They're completely different skills.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So obviously like a partner at a law firm, a consulting firm,

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: anybody in professional services, but it's also development officers for major gifts.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's account executives at big service-based companies, places where it takes 10 or

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: 15 years to build up an expertise where you have enough value

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: that you can help somebody in a deep way technically, but also now at some point in

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: your career, you got to actually go out and find work and find clients.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a really interesting place to be and that's who we help.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing I've thought of as you were saying that, and I want to come back to the two

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: things you mentioned, all the people that those people are servicing are sophisticated

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: people and with serious problems that need to be solved.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that's kind of the common element.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, just to build on that, and that's why it's difficult to have pure,

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'll do air quotes around this.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I know this is audio only, but it's difficult many times to have pure salespeople.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It can work in certain very large complicated service-based businesses like healthcare.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You really need a salesperson focus on that.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But in most places where somebody has one foot in a deep expertise and one foot in growth,

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you can't have a salesperson because the buyer quickly figures out that they need to talk

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: to somebody with technical expertise and they want to talk to the person that's going to do

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the work as fast as possible.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That is the first time I've ever heard anybody explain it that way.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Deep expertise, and they also have to have deep growth.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're absolutely right.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what I think when I see partners that just don't have a book of business

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: in a big firm because as you know, I recruit people that do have a big book of business.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them have said I'm just too busy servicing my clients and I'm stuck.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the dilemma that I found.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that your book give to grow, I think that might provide some solutions

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: for that person.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: They're looking at their watch all the time and they got pressure or they got a target on their

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: back.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You really need to grow your book, but I'm so busy servicing clients.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask you this.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about the avatar of a top performer.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody that is a rainmaker.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I've placed people like this.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know people like this.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They're no more in the world and their sub-sub-sub-nitched expertise.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And they know how to get business.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think sets those people apart?

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well, let me give you a little bit of background because I think it's interesting

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: for the difference between that top performer and an average performer.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we'll talk about how they get there because I think this is really interesting.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: When we were writing the book, Give to Grow, one of the things that a question popped up

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: just in my normal client work, I was getting ready to host a panel of rainmakers

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: at a certain organization, big investment bank.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And the person whispers to me and says, Oh, wow.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, don't say this in the panel, but she that one person you're going to interview,

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: she's got a book of business of $100 million.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, wow, well what's your normal business?

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it was like 5 million or 6 or 7 or something like that.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, wow.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So I got curious and I started calling up all kinds of people that do partner

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: friends and clients that do partner promotion that are CMOs, CBTOs,

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: people that would know.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, hey, what's the difference between your top performer in your organization

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and in normal year and average?

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So not top versus low, top versus average.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And the most common number I got back, Scott, was 10 times.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: 10 times.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Top performers aren't a little bit better than average.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They're typically 10 times or more better.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's interesting to talk about before getting back to your question,

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: like what do they do differently?

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Just to point out how different it is.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So are they doing 10 times more work than the average?

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So that is what we're going to talk about today, Mo.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I want to know.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me about that.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: What do they do and tell me the secret?

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: What is it, Mo?

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Give me the secret.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's more nuanced than one thing.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But I will start with this.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Section two of the book Give to Grow is we did a tremendous amount of research.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll skip over how we did it, but we had to do it

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: because we couldn't find it anywhere.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And we basically figured out what are the things that get in our own way

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: based on thousands of client interviews or interactions in our workshops?

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So basically, we found there's five lies that get in people's way.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what top performers do is they get rid of their own

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: problems before they even focus on anything else.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So line number one is I can give these to you.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: We can dive in.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Line number one is I can't do that.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: At the beginning of people's career, it's they can't do all of business development.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the end of your career, even somebody that's great

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: can still be thinking I can't do that on a narrow topic.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I can't talk about that new offering because we just hired a bunch of laterals.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know it well yet.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't bring in the biggest deals like Suzanne does, things like that.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Line number, so there's a solve for each of these, by the way, we can come back to it.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Line number two is I don't know what to do.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a solve for that.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Line number three is I might do it wrong.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: This is where perfectionism can get in the way.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We can solve for that.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Line number four, you've heard this one, I'm too busy.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a solve for that.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And line number five is I'm going to look bad.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we say or feel what's underneath it is fear of rejection.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: That's overthinking things, not reaching out when we know we should, things like that.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: What top performers do is they know those lies will creep in everybody's head.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The beginner and the best.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And what the best do is they figure out quick ways to get over those.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: They know what the solution is for each one.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And they just act more and they're helpful more.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's as simple as that.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They act more and they're helpful more.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: When you say they're helpful more, what does that mean exactly Moe?

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the mantras in the book people have liked is it's always your move

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's always a chance to be helpful.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So simple examples.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I met Jane at a conference.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I emailed the day after she hasn't replied back.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the lie somebody can tell is gosh, I don't know what to do.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: She didn't reply back with the action is it's always your move

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's always a chance to be helpful.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Start a new thread and invite her to the webinar coming up that she might like

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: get your dang self out of the way and act.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I love it.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's always your move.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And what was the other part you said?

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's always a chance to be helpful.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That's always a chance to be helpful.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Another really strong example is let's say there was a huge shootout,

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: a big pitch or presentation.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You really wanted it.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You didn't win.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You get the email and you can see it coming.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You did all these things great.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: All this this was good.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: This is that and you know the but is in there.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But we decided to go in a different direction.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: What do most people do?

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh well crud.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to talk to them again.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't win.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's always your move.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It's always a chance to be helpful.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Ask for a debrief call.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Figure out what you could do better.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Ask them about their priorities and say,

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: our relationship is more important than this one opportunity.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: How can I be helpful the next year?

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Lean back in.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Let them know you really mean it.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like if these are just two examples.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But if we remember the refrain,

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: it's always our move and it's always a chance to be helpful.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We have a better chance of getting our own fears out of the way.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Leaning back in and what top performers do

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: is they do that more often than others.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just ripples through their entire network.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if they do this once,

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so for example I was telling you before we started

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I was invited to a shootout.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh can you believe it?

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get it.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Well guess what?

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: What did I learn and does that mean it's the end of the relationship?

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I've got other opportunities cooking.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You know and so and I think that when somebody does it once,

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: now they can replay experience

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and draw from that in the future.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Building muscle strength in these things.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Through action and execution.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is really interesting stuff Moe.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me about some of the other lies out of these five.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's start with number four.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I am too busy.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's what you've,

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure you've heard that a few times right?

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Just a couple.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Tell me about that one.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Well it's great.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I love our, you know it's the second time I've been on a show Scott

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and every time you and I are like 100% alignment

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's the one I would have gone through next to.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm too busy.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So the downside of being great at growth

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: is you're slammed all the time.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: There's always something to do.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What top performers do is they don't let the lie

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: of I'm too busy getting the way.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's the mindset.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll give you a mindset and a move to use here.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So the mindset, what top performers do is they do not view

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02]: delivery versus origination or doing the work

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: versus the winning the work.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We use real simple words.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They do not view it like an old lawyer scale

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: or like an old school scale or a teeter-totter that goes up and down.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: The way people can fall into this trap is they feel like

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: if I'm doing delivery work, I cannot do origination work.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if I'm doing this, I can't do that.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: As soon as you believe that, you're sunk.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So what the top performers do is they think

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of either or they think and.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: They integrate business development

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_02]: in relationship development with delivery.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll give you a study and a move.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's the mindset.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's the move and with some research in between.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Some research out of Cornell recently found that a face-to-face ask

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: had a 34 times more likely chance of getting a yes than an email ask.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to get your mind around 34 times.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It was the difference in their study from a two out of

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: 100 chance of getting a yes on email versus a 68 out of 100 chance in person

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: for the same request 34 times.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we integrate business development with delivery,

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: we can see the power of that.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's say we're headed for trial.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: We're setting our strategy.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to go to trial next week.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: We're sitting there with that AGC that we're working with

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: at a big client.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We're slammed.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a time at that moment to bring up business development.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But it is a time to say something like,

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: hey Suzanne, I have really enjoyed working with you on this.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I really feel good.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we got a great chance to get an even better outcome than the business thinks we can.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to get together maybe after we finish this thing up,

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe in a month or two, fly to Chicago, take you to dinner.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I know we've bent our sleeves rolled up doing this work,

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but I would love just to hear more about your career,

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: hear where you're going and find some ways to be helpful.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Can we set that up?

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It took 30 seconds.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you wait two months till after trial and then send an email,

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you probably aren't going to get a response.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It's three months after that and two reschedules till you get the dinner,

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: all of a sudden half a year is going by and you probably had a low chance of success.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: If you integrate business development with delivery,

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: with little 30-second asks in the future, you've set yourself up for success.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And what this is is game theory, Moe.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at those variables that contribute the most to the outcome

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and how do we get higher probabilities of a positive result that bears fruit?

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, and this is what it is, just do two or three things that matter the most to get the outcome

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and boom, there you go.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean we could go deep into this in a lot of directions.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I always come back to institutional impediments of law firms

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that keep people from doing these things.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that law firms struggle with that?

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And not just law firms but other fancy professional services firms

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that have a sophisticated offering to sophisticated prospects.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that those organizations themselves can actually be the reason for their demise

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: or the reason why people don't do these things?

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about that?

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that I'll be really clear on this and I'm going to hit this really hard

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'll be really direct.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Average performers make excuses that their organization has things that aren't perfect.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Top performers don't care and they just keep controlling what they can control.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Example, the average performer says, and I'm going to be a little bit dramatic here.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Our comp system isn't aligned because we're paid on an annual basis

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but it takes three years to develop a relationship so I'm not in zen and I'm

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm lathered it on pretty thick there.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: What a top performer does is they say, I don't care.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to keep doing what I know works.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to keep investing in long-term relationships.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Always my move, always chance to be helpful.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know over the course of 10 or 20 years, I'm playing the long game.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be just fine.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's the think of every minute somebody says complaining about the system versus acting

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and being external.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You start to pile that up.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's 10, 50, 100 hours a year that's different.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: The top performer keeps climbing because they don't worry.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things that you said kind of tying it back in

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: where face-to-face you're more likely to get the work face-to-face

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and just by focusing on this area, that's how you can get 10 times

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: without spending 10 times more time on it is focus on those leverage.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just call it a leverageable event where we're going to look for

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: leverageable events that can propel us forward more quickly and with more certainty

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: in the relationship.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's how they can do it.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like what you said about top performers don't care.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's true.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I talked to a lot of people that give me those reasons and other reasons

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes it's not the right platform anyways.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And you have to move because of conflicts or whatever.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found that when partners leave firms, there's usually one of two reasons.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Either strategy issues related to what you said or more often than not,

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it's leadership issues.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: There's just no trust.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no trust.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't trust my...

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've heard this before.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't trust my leadership and I don't trust my colleagues.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've seen that before.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, let me get back to this.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the other thing that I see here is...

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And Scott, can I go back to one point?

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I would actually...

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I need to refine something I said.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: When I said they don't care, that's not quite accurate.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the way you said it was better and I just want to reconcile that for the audience.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: The top performer cares deeply.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They care deeply about their clients.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They care deeply about their firm.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Mostly they care about the impact they can make.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So if systems aren't aligned for them to do what they do,

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: they act and they change it or they leave.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: If it can't be changed, they find a different platform to your point.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I think instead of me saying they don't care,

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: probably what I would have said is...

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: What I wish I would have said is then we can do this now is they keep acting.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: They keep the locus of control.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: They keep the proactivity.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The average performer complains and doesn't act.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: The top performer acts and makes change.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that's probably a better way for me to say it.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, back to you.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you're on a roll.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's okay.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen both of those.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And one question I even asked me is,

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: what have you done about that?

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you talked with the leadership about it?

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there you go.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them, yes I have.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've decided it's just not the right place for me.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I love my firm.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I love my colleagues, but I need to go somewhere else.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And what's interesting, Mo, is that I have seen and read

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the business plans of some amazing rain makers,

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: like top one half of 1%.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just normal people and super smart.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe they...

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Most of them obviously well educated people have a really good pedigree.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: They do these things that you're talking about.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They just can't rest on those laurels.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've made some significant placements with people

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: with amazing credentials and they're doing the work.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: They're actually doing these things.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I see here, especially in a legal environment

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: is this.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I might do it wrong.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to look bad.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other one, I don't want to look bad.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I think those two are really big rocks in the bucket,

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: so to speak, in all of these things that we're talking about.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about that one.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to look bad because nobody wants to look bad.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about that?

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a big one.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you're quite good at this yourself

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: because you've grown up this incredible business.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: What's underneath I'm going to look bad, that's the symptom,

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: but the real root of it is fear of rejection.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So the solve for this one that we say in a short little quip

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that people can remember is think 10x, not 1x.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: What do we mean by that?

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have 1x thinking,

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you're thinking this next time has to be perfect.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: James has to...

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I got to get James to reply to this next email to go to dinner or whatever.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have 1x thinking, you'll overthink it.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You won't act.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll delay.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll make the email too long or the request.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll just...

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: All kinds of bad things happen

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: because you're putting too much pressure on one moment.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have 10x thinking,

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you're thinking I'm going to reach out to James 10 times in this next year.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Something's going to stick.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It might be one, two things,

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'm just going to keep adding value.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to keep offering helpfulness

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm not going to stop.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And that lowers the bar.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It lets you send a short email to invite in the webinar

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of this thousand word treatise

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that you had your mom review for typos.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it just takes all the pressure off.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think part of the reason the top performers

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: can offer helpfulness more often is they lower the bar

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and they just say,

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to keep making offers as much as possible.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I can do it faster.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't delay.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: My outreach is a shorter.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm integrating business development with delivery

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: like we talked about.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And they just in the same amount of time,

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: make more offers of helpfulness

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and get back to your idea of game theory.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you're a former actuary.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You're a former professional poker player.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, like we know statistics.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Park counter.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Park counter.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's amazing.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we both know statistics.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: They're just out there more often

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: making more offer of helpfulness and statistically

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: more things flow through to them getting hired.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly right, Mel.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly right.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask you this.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: In your book,

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: you talk about the four gifts that you give to others.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like the way you say this.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember where I played golf with a client of mine.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He took me to his club

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's just a great client and a great friend.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the people we paired up with

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: was an executive of a private equity company.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And the whole time,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: he didn't talk about his firm or anything.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: He dropped a little credibility statement.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But oh, you know, I have an idea.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually have somebody I can refer to you,

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: not in his firm outside.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to benefit him.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And we had a drink afterwards

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're talking about that.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, that's just absolutely brilliant.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: No giving.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's the same mindset that you have.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Giving.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the theme I see among all successful

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: rainmaking partners I've talked to.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that they don't have the chip on their shoulder?

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: They know they're a big deal.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, some of them have the chip,

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but they know they're a big deal,

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but they still see I need to give.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And so tell me about these four gifts

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that you give to others.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me about these.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the first one?

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The gift of attention, is that right?

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: In the way we say it in the book,

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that's exactly right.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: This is great because why don't you say the gift

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I'll say the version of that

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that people can remember

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and we'll just go through all four.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So gift of attention.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so that people love attention.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_02]: According to some research out of Japan,

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: in for relationships like personal relationships,

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the number one correlation to intimacy is attention.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we can think of it now,

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: like when we go home and talk to our partner and spouse

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: after a long day of work,

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: are we actually asking them how their day went

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: or are we asking them while we're looking at our phone?

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a big difference to look in the eye.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So what we can focus on is focus on engagement.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: When we're in meetings,

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: if we can focus on engagement

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to the point where we're not focused on,

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: we're on slide 10 of our PowerPoint,

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to get to 25

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and we're ahead or behind in the talk,

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not focusing on engagement.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: That's focusing on a filibuster.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That's focused on what we're going to say.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We want to focus on are they engaged?

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they leaning in?

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they asking questions?

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Are we giving them what they need?

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Can I say something about this, Mo?

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I've seen the negative,

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the inverse of that partner candidate

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: interviewing with the leader of the firm,

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: two of them and one of me said

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: he kept looking at his phone during the conversation.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And who knows what's going on,

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but that message wasn't conveyed.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You're important to me.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You're someone we want to have as a colleague.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's brilliant.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean just, I love that.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The gift of attention, focus on engagement.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about the next one,

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: the gift of understanding.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean exactly?

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is fun how we're doing this.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So the version that the audience can remember

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: is all in love with their problem.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so powerful.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: The gift of understanding is to be seen,

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02]: to feel heard, clients man,

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: they're getting beat up all day long.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: They're worried about that meeting at three o'clock.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They got to let somebody go at four.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: They got to somehow run through the store

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and pick up their kids to go to soccer practice at six.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they want people to hear and understand them.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So fall in love with their problem

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: is a version of the same thing

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that we can remember in our head to say,

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to ask questions.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We need to ask follow up questions.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We need to paraphrase back.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So what you're saying, Jane, is this,

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: dude, I get that right.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: That is so powerful for relationship building.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's great.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, good.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to the next one.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the next one after that,

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're pretty much almost done

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: with our interview here, Moe.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: The gift of wisdom,

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: what does that mean exactly?

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so great.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So the mantra that we can remember

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: is give them the experience of working with you.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell a quick story,

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and I know we're sprinting to the end,

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but there was one time early in our marriage,

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: my wife and I had our 32nd anniversary yesterday.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, congratulations.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was great.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We had a lot of fun.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So earlier in our marriage,

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: like two years in or whatever,

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we still had tons of college debt,

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: all kinds of stuff.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We went to a restaurant

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that we probably shouldn't have been at.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It was too expensive, but we did it.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We're with another couple to celebrate,

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and the sommelier comes out

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and offers a big bottle of wine.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And we were already stretching the budget.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, we shouldn't have been there.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We're like, the small you walk away,

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: we're like, we're not buying that.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Five minutes later, he comes out with a taste.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: For all four of us.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Scott, we bought the bottle.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We even bought a second bottle.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: My point with that is

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it's so much more compelling

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to get a taste of something

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: than to hear about how great it is.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what we want to do as professionals.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We want to just start solving their problem.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we fell in love with their problem,

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: we understand it.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the prior gift.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But this one is,

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: we actually want to roll up our sleeves.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what's a half hour session

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: we can do with them to start

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_02]: teaching them about the issue

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and how they'd get started?

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_02]: How can we maybe meet with them

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and map out a plan

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to solve the matter that they're dealing with?

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Just start doing the work.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And by giving them that experience of working with you,

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it's so much easier and safer for them

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: to just say, let's get started.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's hire you.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I love the way you teach this, Moe,

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because you're reframing the day to day

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: what people should be doing

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and giving deep wisdom of wisdom here,

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: deep wisdom in perspective.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a gaseous wisdom right here

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: about how you see it.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: If you just see it,

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: give them the experience of working with you.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: How can I find opportunities

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: then to work with me

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: where there's no commitment?

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we sit on a board together

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: or something like that.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's chair committee, whatever.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They've had the experience of working with you.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So the last one here, the four of the four gifts,

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the gifts of clarity and progress.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean, Moe?

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's the only one where we use two words,

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: clarity and progress.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And the idea here is people are,

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: our clients are slammed.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: They got a thousand things going on

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: like we talked about.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: They want clarity.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: They want to know what's next.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: The second idea here

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is there's a ton of research at Harvard.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Teresa Mavallé is the leader here

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: in the research.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's absolutely amazing.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And she basically finds that the happiest

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and the most productive people in the world

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_02]: are ones that celebrate incremental progress.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: We love to feel progress.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So here's the mantra we can remember on this one

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to giving them

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that the gifts of clarity and progress is,

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: here it is, always make a recommendation.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of times professionals

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: can have that great meeting

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and then leave it up to the client

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to decide what's next

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because they don't want to look salesy.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't want to look pushy.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: There's other lies in our mind

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that are messing us up,

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but we never want to fall for that.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The client wants a recommendation.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: We are giving them clarity

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and we are giving them progress

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: by telling them what to do next.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Two great ways to make a recommendation.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: One, and these are exact

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: phrasings people can use.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: They can tweak and make themselves

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: make these their own.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But one is based on the science of authority.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: We tend to trust authority figures

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: in times of stress,

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: purchasing somebody,

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: hiring a new advisor stress will.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other one's based on

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the science of social proof.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We feel comfortable doing things

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: other people do.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So the authority way to make a recommendation is,

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: based on my experience,

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: what I would say we should do next is X.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: That puts the authority figure in us.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Based on my experience,

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: what I think we should do is next.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a little harder version.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: The softer version based on social proof says,

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: this has been a great conversation.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: What most of our clients do next is X.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a little softer.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Both of them are great.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Got some Chaldini.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You're channeling Chaldini now.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, you picked that up.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I know, Bob.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's great.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, excellent.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, those are two of the six most influential factors

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: in the human mind by Bob Chaldini.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, Scott, we're just,

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: we're always aligned.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I know, I know in different businesses,

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, but we talk to the same people

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: who are really interesting

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and really, really interesting people.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me kind of bring our interview

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to a close here, Mo.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And first I want to thank you for being here again.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to have you back again.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go deeper on your book

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: in a couple of months.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like that a lot.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: If you could bring our listeners

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: three action steps,

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: because there's a lot of information you've shared,

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of information in the book

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and I like the way it's really laid out.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is a logical book,

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but I found the overarching theme is emotion,

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: where there's a lot of heart in this.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And when you think about it,

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and I remember having a first time

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I talked to a partner about it this way,

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to move,

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but I don't want to make an emotional decision.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I told him, I said, you will.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I said, you want to make a safe emotional decision.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do the diligence so you can now feel safe

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and getting excited about the move.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that, Mo, you have a lot of heart.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think let's just admit it,

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: there's emotion to how we do work.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to feel good about it.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to feel good about what we do.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's an emotional context

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to the buying relationship

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and the serving relationship.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not bad.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just use that to our advantage.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And just even the title of your book, Give to Grow.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that encapsulates everything right here.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you could kind of bring us

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: to a simple point of three action steps,

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: what are three steps somebody can do,

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: they can take to really get started on this journey?

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, or even take their 90th percentile skills

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: to 99th, even if they're quite advanced.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll give three things.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: One has a massive amount of leverage.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: We created a training that goes around the book,

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Give to Grow,

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and people don't even have to buy the book

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to get the training.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So when you write a book called Give to Grow,

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to give a lot.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: We believe in that anyway.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So the training, and it's six videos for me,

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it's tons of downloads,

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: like super practical stuff,

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: like the best 50 questions we've ever seen

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that help you fall in love with a client's problem.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's like almost 50 downloads.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: That's just one of them.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, that's at givetogrow.info.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And we will put that link on the show notes

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: for everybody listening if you're in your car,

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: go to the show notes where you hear this

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll find that.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's step one, go to givetogrow.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: What was it again?

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01]: .info.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And then massive amount of value, six videos,

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: like just tons of stuff.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's a no brainer

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: because it'll just teach you so much

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: more than we had time to cover today.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's thing one, Give to Grow.info.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Thing two, there's a table in the book,

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: in the paperback or in the hardcover,

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: it's on page 32 and 33.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And it shows that the differences

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: between doing the work delivery

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and winning the work relationship development

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: aren't just different, they're exact opposites.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll give you an example and then we'll move to the third thing.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's a whole, there's several rows on this,

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but like one is emails should be long

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and offer clarity while you're doing work.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you're doing emails around relationship development,

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: they should be short and offer help.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is like, there's a whole bunch of other examples,

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: but the idea is you want to be able to toggle

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: between which mode am I in?

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I working on something I've already been hired for

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: or am I trying to get hired or develop a relationship?

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Like an example on this email idea is like,

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're working on a transaction

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and you need seven things to get the first version done,

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that client's going to respond.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You've already been hired.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it should be a thousand word email

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and the seven things you need by Thursday at five

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: to get the first version done.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you're sending a relationship development email,

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_02]: those emails should be 50 words or less.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Why?

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Because 50 words is about what fits on one screen

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and outlook on an iPhone.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, wow.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So we need to be able to...

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: That's really powerful.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It forces you to be brief.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, toggle the more meta ideas,

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: know which mode you're in.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I delivering work that's been hired

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: or am I trying to get hired?

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And basically if you do it one way here,

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: it should be the opposite there.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And what's our third one, though?

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: What's our third action step?

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to close with where we start.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really simple.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody remember, it's always your move

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's always a chance to be helpful.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So we need to remember not to blow in the winds of

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: if the person replied or not,

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: if we won the deal or not,

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: if they attended the webinar or canceled.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't connect yourself to the outcome.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Think no matter what it is,

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: if I'm thinking to that person,

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it's my move and it's my chance to be helpful.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: This is great, Mo.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for being here today.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Congratulations on writing a good book,

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a very good book.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Highly recommend this.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing in my mind as you're talking about this,

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you for the PhD level education

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: today that you've given me on these things.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I do this every day.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, wow, which mode am I in?

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Never thought of that before.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: How deep does this rabbit hole go, Mo?

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: How deep does it go?

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It goes on forever.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so tell us for those people

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that might not know who you are,

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: tell us about the offerings that you have.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you do that you'd like our listeners to know about?

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, we'll put the link referenced

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: before on the show notes

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and all of your other contact info on the show notes.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll share that in service of the audience

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: because we'll add some value here.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not me blabbering on about myself.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But the main thing that we do

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: is help high-end professionals

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: grow their books of business

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: through building their relationship skills.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So no brainer starting point

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is obviously grab the book,

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: give to grow, and sign up for that free course

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: at give to grow.info.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But you know what?

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: For your listeners, Scott,

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd even be willing to offer like five seats in our fit.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we do it first come, first serve.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But we offer a marquee training class.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: This is what the top law firms,

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the tier one management consulting firms hire us to do.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: The best, the top investment banks,

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: it's called Grow Big Training.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's three days.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We do public classes in Atlanta every other month.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So this they just keep going forever.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Usually cost around $5,000.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It is the I really believe

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: it's the most elite training class

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: for relationship and business development in the world.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And why don't we say for you?

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I know we're doing this off the cuff,

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: but why don't we say for your listeners,

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the first five people that let you know,

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: we just let them come as our guest.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We wave all the fees as a thank you to you and your audience,

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and they can come check it out.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll put my email on the show notes also

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll leave it limited to the first five people

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that email me.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll sign them up complimentary moe.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That's very generous of you.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, give to grow.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: How about that?

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Ladies and gentlemen,

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you've seen Moe in action doing exactly what he teaches.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again for being here, Moe.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have you back on the show for sure.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Scott, I enjoy every interaction we have.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're just getting started.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Likewise.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Great job.