TRP 211: Well Being for Rainmakers with Kathy Richardson

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high-stakes headhunter, author and

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and this is Scott Love.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for joining me on the show.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a special guest today.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: This is somebody that's talking about a pretty important topic, which is the topic

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: of well-being.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And our topic is actually well-being for rainmakers.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're in professional services, if you're the person that has to close the deal,

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: get the client to sign and earn their trust, you're in a position of great stress, aren't

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you?

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: There's overwhelming pressure on you to produce and to produce at a high level.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my friend and industry colleague, Kathy Richardson, is going to be talking about

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And our topic title, Well-Being for Rainmakers, is exactly what that is.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: She's going to share some insights that I think will make an immediate difference

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and also some other offerings that she has, which are quite unique and very helpful to

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the people that she works with.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal, intelligent, suite of products,

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: FirmScape and Leopard BI.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And now here's my interview with my friend and industry colleague, Kathy Richardson.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, this is Scott Love with The Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a special guest and a really good friend on today, Kathy Richardson.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And today we're talking about well-being for rainmakers.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Kathy, thanks for joining me on the show.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me, Scott.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Me too.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Me too.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's get right into it.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Well-being.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that mental health is important when I grew up and went to, quote, college

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: at the Naval Academy in the 80s.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There was no such thing as mental health, right?

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just keep your head down, grind it out.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't make eye contact and things will get better.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But nowadays people talk about this.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So tell me this, let's get some definitions in place, Kathy, when we talk

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: about well-being, what does that mean exactly?

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, when I talk about well-being, I'm talking about health in every form,

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: including your physical health, emotional health, spiritual health,

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: mental health and financial health.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I work with lawyers.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And definitely the bread and butter of what I do is legal recruiting.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But over the years working with so many lawyers, I spent six years as

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the Dean of Career Services at University of Texas Law School

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and was recruited to start the Austin Office of a major international

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: search firm.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And a few years later, I started my own search firm.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And in my 20-plus years of placing law students and lawyers,

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: well-being really kind of at the end of the day, our health is our wealth.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's such an important component of successful careers doing anything,

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: including rainmaking.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's key from a business perspective.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there's too many people that have that lens,

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: which they look in doing what you do.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So kudos to you in really harnessing your passion and expertise.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's distinction.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So for everybody listening, here's a business development lesson.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever is unique about you that you can say that nobody else can,

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you can use that as a way to bring attention to you in your professional service.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So good job.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Good job with that.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And really organically, I became a certified yoga instructor.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Gosh, probably about 15 years ago in the first class I ever taught was

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: called Yoga for Lawyers.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was for the Travis County Women's Lawyers Association.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was probably one of the most terrifying things I've ever done

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: is to teach yoga to a group of lawyers.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't put their phone down.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So now I actually do lawyer wellness retreats because I think it's easier

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: for lawyers to get away when they actually have gone somewhere.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And we do daily yoga, we meditate, we do talk a little bit about

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, career development and kind of unpacking sometimes the careers

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that lawyers have had so far so that they can then pivot towards

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: something that's going to bring them more joy.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's brilliant and healthy for you to pursue that,

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: because obviously you're good at that.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That's your passion.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it fits right within that career management space

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that we work in because there's a lot of pressure for people

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that perform at that level.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask you this.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the common pitfalls that you've seen

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: professionals might fall into that negatively impact them in terms of well-being?

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me about that.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I work and I know that you've got professionals from across

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: industries listening to this broadcast which I applaud because I do feel like

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: this is across industries and I work exclusively with lawyers.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like as I always say kind of lawyers are special.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: We are trained and I'm trained as a lawyer.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I went to University of Texas Law School and we are trained to pursue perfection,

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: which is impossible.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I also I feel like we're kind of trained to throw more hours at a problem

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in part because we're rewarded for that, especially in the law firm structure.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But I say sometimes you have to slow down to catch up

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and this grind culture that is celebrated really in America,

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but especially within the legal profession can be counterproductive.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes there really is something to be said.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a daily meditation practice

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and that there's something to be said for learning other like energy

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: management in addition to time management so that you're bringing

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: your best self to everything that you do and your whole self.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I also connect well-being with with belonging and inclusion.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I started the NALF,

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the National Association of Legal Search Consultants.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I was the founding chair of the Belonging and Inclusion Committee

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and I connect belonging and inclusion with well-being.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is great.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: What you just shared we could spend about a day going down various avenues of that.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask you this.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some indications that a professional has where he or she

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: might need to pay attention to to know that they're getting off the path of well-being?

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some indications they should look for?

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you know, kind of overall unhappiness and or dread on Monday morning

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: or even worse Sunday evening.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So like, you know, I say everyone deserves to love their job, including lawyers.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And some, you know, I feel like sometimes you get so used to that

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: pit in your stomach that you stop questioning, do I have to feel this way?

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like if you're underpaid and you know it,

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: some people don't know whether or not they're underpaid.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But when I talked at the beginning about the ways that I define help,

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it includes financial help.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're overworked and underpaid, you might start, you know,

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: towards a life where you're not feeling healthy.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is something that can be you don't have to live that way.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to be overworked.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to be underpaid.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, I mean, they have done studies on kind of lawyer,

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: happiness and business development.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And people like to do business with happy people and healthy people.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's great.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that. I really like that.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So if somebody has that stomach pain Sunday night,

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to go to work tomorrow.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. What are the things that they can do?

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I feel like being grounded in your workspace is really important.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Having a space even within your workspace that you can ground yourself.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And what do you mean by that when you say being grounded?

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I feel like there's just something that we can control

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and our workspace is typically one of them.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so some people are able to work still in a hybrid way.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that helps them feel like they've got some control

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: of their day and of their space.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Others, I encourage people to take time to do deep to do

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: breath work, even if it's during the day at your desk to go outside

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and get some fresh air and some some energy from nature over lunch.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there are ways, even if you're unhappy in your job,

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: there are ways, I think, to take care of yourself.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, I'm a legal recruiter.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You're you're a legal recruiter.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I would encourage you if you're absolutely miserable

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking about going into work on Monday morning.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Is to talk through with a professional,

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: whether or not there is a better environment for you.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That's great. That looks like.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And I like the fact and I heard this from an associate

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: candidate working with one of my colleagues.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: When he said this, he was really clear.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, the vision I have for my career is this.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: He was so clear about that and how we articulated that.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought, wow, that's truly interesting.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: That's somebody that knows exactly where they want to go.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd be willing to bet a lot of professionals.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: They haven't really thought too far about what they really want.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that has something to do with mental health

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and with well-being?

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I do. I think absolutely that when you're doing something

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that you love, and we talked a little bit about this before

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: we started recording, I mean, that you love what you do.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I love what I do.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it's what God put me on this earth to do.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel incredibly blessed to wake up every day

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: doing something I love.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like everyone deserves to love their job.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's really hard to thrive.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We spend more time at work than we do with our friends

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and our family over the course of their lives.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And especially lawyers where a 40-day workweek is not the norm.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a longer workweek than that.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Then where you're spending those hours matter, how you're spending,

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: who you're spending those hours with.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they enhancing your well-being and your happiness?

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Or is it detracting?

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But do you think people should journal and kind of write down

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: what's going on in their life?

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that kind of gives them a way to vent

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and also to kind of look back on things going on in their life?

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about that?

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think journaling is the thing for you.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know me really well.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a fairly vivid dream life.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I write my dreams down every morning

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: because I feel like at night I'm getting information

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that helps me know kind of the next steps.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And so everybody, I think, has a different way to get that information

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe even a different name for it.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I call it intuition,

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's really hard to hear your intuition in a room full of noise.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so how you get quiet or how you, like some people journal,

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: some people meditate, some I have a daily,

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a regular yoga practice.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I write my dreams down.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I spend time with friends and like friends and other, you know,

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and like I've got dogs, you know, like there are like that connection

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: matters as well.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think especially post COVID,

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of professionals have become disconnected

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_02]: from a community that helps bolster their happiness.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And I think that COVID obviously changed the world.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We all went through something together.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me about that over the last and I can't believe what was it four years ago?

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Believe it.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I mean, it feels like two weeks ago and 20 years ago at the same time.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. It was a long year.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I know. And I remember.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: We got a puppy.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. You got a COVID puppy.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great. That's great.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But what do you think how COVID has been changed or impacted by COVID

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: in our well-being?

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think specifically are ways that we need to watch out

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: because of how COVID changed that?

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think, Kathy?

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I mean, this is a tough topic for me to even talk about.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's how I got more like more into well-being.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And I had a candidate take his own life during the pandemic

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: in his office where I placed him.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that just really hit home for me,

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: how much it matters that we're staying connected as a community

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that we're checking in with each other.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Some people are 100 percent virtual.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Some people are hybrid.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Some people are in person and to make sure that across those lines

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and within our communities of lawyers that we're checking in on each other.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: That we are doing kind of in person.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the interview process as a recruiter got really truncated

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: during COVID and in some ways it was great.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, yeah, I've been in placement in a week until I got never about that before.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But then, you know, people are working with people that they've not met.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I feel like in some ways we've if we were not careful,

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: we cut off, we cut ourselves off from something

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that brings us so much vitality in our workplaces, which is each other.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And I appreciate you sharing about what happened with your candidate.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm very sorry to hear that, Kathy.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that there's a hesitation

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that some of us might have if we're introverts and we say,

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: hooray, I can be at home most of the time.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Just do my work and not have to talk to people.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think there's a point where that becomes unhealthy

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: when people really should force to break through

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: any anxiety they feel about being around other people?

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm I'm mostly an introvert.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, truth be told, I'd rather just stay home

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and paint pretty pictures with my watercolors and not have to talk with anybody.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about that?

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I should show you my background.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's got books, books, books.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I am an introvert as well.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm an undercover introvert, and I do feel like especially post COVID,

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I have to really intentionally create community.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've, you know, community, lawyers, community.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I now have really leaned into my yoga community,

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: community with other book lovers.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I hiked Kilimanjaro this year.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually also just liked Mount Maru, so like my hiking community.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd really, at least me personally have had and also making sure

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that I'm doing in person client visits.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That's something that, you know, obviously fell off during COVID.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And I had to intentionally, and some of it is I have some amazing clients

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: who make it really easy to do some of those in person visits.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm, you know, I'm Texas based even though I do play nationally

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and I make an effort and am always happy that I did to go see my clients in person.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's great.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think when you look at it from the upside downside perspective,

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: it's worth it to break out of your comfort zone.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Me with people in person, it moves the deals forward economically.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. But I know that also it contributes to just how you feel

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: about your own mental health being able to connect with people like that.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I like the fact that you got real strategic with this also.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You're hiking community.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You're kind of finding communities at dovetail with your interests.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So it probably it helps to dissipate any anxiety with wanting to be around people.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's great, Kathy.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I hike with, you know, I like in my retreats,

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: they have so far been for, I mean, for the most part for women lawyers.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And we, you know, I lead a yoga class and I lead meditation.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And but it also is nice then meeting people that, you know,

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: have asked me to help them fill roles that they have open or make a strategic move.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's not what the retreats are.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not the purpose, but it can sometimes happen.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I definitely my personal interest and professional interests

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of unite in an interesting way.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And that in itself is an interesting topic from a business development perspective.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: People could look at their interests or even charity involvement sitting on boards,

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: joining the Rotary Club.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Rotary, it's not appropriate to look at that as the place to pass out

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: business cards and sell, sell, sell.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. You don't even have that intention, but you show up.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You get to know people in business transpires organically.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly right.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So I like the fact.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Because they know, I mean, and it's true.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I really do.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I lead with your well being.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you?

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And then what can what, you know, how could I support your

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: strategic search or how can I support your career happiness?

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's the question I lead with.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. That's interesting.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You're interesting, Kathy.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You're an interesting person.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think just because I've got my business development had on still

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: where and the whole point of recruiting is to build trust with people

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: quickly so we can guide them.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, I think the well being is a really good lens

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that it causes distinction and it helps you to get to that trust level.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's almost like when you look at when we build trust with people,

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: some people it might take a while, but there are other people where it's

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: a hockey stick. Instantly, they decide, OK, now I can trust you.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you what's really going on.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think just coming to a point of importance and potence,

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: which is well being that does coincide tangentially with career interests also.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which I think is really good.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what I want to do also, I wanted to find out about people

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that you've worked with.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, you don't have to mention names or so or anything like that.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But tell me about someone that you've coached that you've worked

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: with where you've helped them to break through certain areas

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that might have held them back with related to their well being.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a great question.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I helped somebody about a year or so ago double her income.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that has a lot to do with well being.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And she was somebody just super, super smart, really active in the community

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and the community of diverse lawyers.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And she had a great reputation and was doing a lot of work

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of outside of her law firm.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But her the law firm she was at, you know, they packed her on the back

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and sent her back out to do more.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And she was great, but they were not rewarding her financially.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And we worked together successfully for a couple of months.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: She called me very specifically.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: She said, Kathy, I know you're passionate about compensation

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and making sure that we're paid what we're worth.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I said absolutely and helped her double her income.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I know people don't always connect pay and well being.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Well, that's so.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask you this then and I appreciate you sharing that story.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: What are the different components if we could parse it all out

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: into the big rocks in the buckets, so to speak, related to mental

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to our well being? What are some of those?

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you mentioned some earlier, but I wanted to kind of have them lined up here.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the legal profession talks a lot about mental health,

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: which is obviously incredibly important.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We talk a lot less about emotional health,

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: which I think is almost that loft chip in law school

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that we just don't learn a lot about our emotional well being.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: How are we feeling?

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. And are we processing our emotions or are we dumping them down?

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Spiritual health, physical health, financial health.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great. So mental health, emotional health,

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: spiritual health, physical health and financial health.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, there. That's great.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that. I mean, that kind of gives us a system that we can look at.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly right.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's really hard to be healthy in one way of your unhealthy in another.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really hard to be, you know, like our, you know, we think of spiritual health.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm not talking necessarily about religion, though, you know,

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: if someone has a deep faith, I mean, there's all sorts of studies

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: about how healthy that is, but just to be spiritually connected

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: by spending time in nature or by by taking time to meditate.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that does enhance our overall health.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great. So tell me about your retreats.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: What happens during the retreats?

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: What are the changes that people go through and then over the long term?

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: How does that impact them?

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, I've done a short weekend retreat

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think the changes there are just to see how short

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: a period of time you can spend on your well being from practicing yoga

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to having sharing circles to meditating and how quickly it can make a difference.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: The retreats I do in Barbados have been,

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a dear friend with the villa called La Maldon Michelle.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And we go on a catamaran, we eat amazing, healthy food every day.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We practice yoga, we meditate, we hike, we go to the beach

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and really we celebrate sisterhood and community.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's almost always a group of lawyers

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that also talk about how they can support each other in their careers as well.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great. Well, Cathy, if we could summarize

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the things you've talked about and three action steps

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that somebody listening to you today can get started on to increase their well being.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: What would those three action steps be?

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say that if you're a law firm partner

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're listening to this and you're not happy on Sunday evening

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and you have a pit in your stomach on Monday mornings to consider reaching out

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: to if not me to another legal recruiter

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_02]: who can help you ascertain whether or not you're at the right platform.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to stay in a miserable job that if you are a law firm,

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're in management or leadership and you're interested in growing

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: your team in a way that's also enhancing your culture.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I do do retain searches.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I am Texas based but have a national scope and have had success

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: on behalf of my clients retaining talent that not only comes with portable books

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but also enhances the culture that they're building at their firm.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And finally, if you're interested in either one of the retreats

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the retreats that I've done so far have all been in March

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: or also I'm putting a group of lawyers together to climb Mount Kilimanjaro

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that's going to be in 2026.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're redoing our website right now, HR Legal Search.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And so in the next month or so, we're going to have a beautiful new website

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: where we'll share all of our offerings.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: That's great. Well, Kathy, this is great.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really glad you got to be on the show.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You're one of my favorite legal recruiters and I know a lot

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and I know that we spent time on the board with the National Association

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: of Legal Search Consultants and I appreciate the difference you made

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: in your leadership and thank you so much for being here

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and sharing all of your wisdom with us today, Kathy.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I just right back at you, Scott,

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: when I first became a legal recruiter,

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: when I'm my first year of legal recruiting,

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you spoke to a group at a conference that we had and you were so inspirational.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I went out, I bought your book.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I read your book was on the recruiting compass

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and I still use the proof that I learned in that book

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: about being fearless, about not letting rejection get you down

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: about how important it is to have just a good attitude.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so right back at you, Scott, I have so much respect for you.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Kathy.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for being here and I'd love to have you back on the show in the future.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's talk about being a little further down the line.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Rain Making Podcast.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: For more information about our recruiting services

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: for international law firms, visit our website at attorneyssearchgroup.com

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention,

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: conference, sales meeting or executive retreat.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Visit therainmakingpodcast.com.