TRP 197: Women in Leadership Roles in Professional Services Firms with Jill Huse

[00:00:01] You're listening to the Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high-stakes headhunter, author and

[00:00:19] professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:24] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast and my name is Scott Love.

[00:00:27] Thank you for joining me on the show.

[00:00:28] I'm excited about our episode today because it's one that's very different than what we've

[00:00:33] had in the past.

[00:00:34] Let me tell you about our topic and then who our guest is.

[00:00:37] Our topic for today is women in leadership roles and professional services firms.

[00:00:42] We've never talked about that yet, that's an important topic.

[00:00:44] And our guest is my friend Jill Hughes.

[00:00:47] Now you may recognize that name because Jill came on the show in the first year that I

[00:00:51] produced it.

[00:00:53] She is the co-founder and chief strategy officer for Society 54 which is a consulting

[00:00:59] and training firm that helps professional services firms, especially law firms, improve

[00:01:03] their skills in terms of business development.

[00:01:06] Now even if you're not in the legal industry, this conversation with Jill will impact you

[00:01:11] in significant ways.

[00:01:13] Of course all of the concepts are malleable to those who are rainmakers and other types

[00:01:17] of professional services firms.

[00:01:19] So make sure you pay attention and listen to what she has to say.

[00:01:22] As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal intelligence suite of

[00:01:27] products, FirmScape and Leopard BI.

[00:01:30] Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard.

[00:01:32] And now here's my conversation with my friend Jill Hughes.

[00:01:35] Thanks for listening.

[00:01:36] Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rain Making Podcast.

[00:01:41] I've got a repeat guest today.

[00:01:43] Jill Hughes is joining us and today we're talking about women in leadership roles

[00:01:47] and professional services firms.

[00:01:49] Jill, thanks for joining me again on the podcast.

[00:01:52] Scott, thanks for having me.

[00:01:53] I'm excited.

[00:01:54] Yeah, me too.

[00:01:55] Me too.

[00:01:56] And so I like this topic because I think it is very much a big part of the way I

[00:02:01] know for a fact law firms are thinking of in terms of putting women in leadership

[00:02:05] roles.

[00:02:06] And I think that's a common trend also in professional services firms across the

[00:02:10] board.

[00:02:11] So let me ask you this, what are some of the common challenges that you think

[00:02:15] women are facing in leadership roles?

[00:02:17] Yeah, so I think that there's quite a few, but I think predominantly the

[00:02:21] biggest challenge is that there are a lot of men in leadership who are

[00:02:28] sometimes good old boy network where they're giving advantages to other men that

[00:02:34] are coming up the ranks and the women aren't getting the same opportunities.

[00:02:38] A lot of that is pointed back to black and white of these are the numbers

[00:02:42] and this is what the numbers looks like, but unfortunately because they're not

[00:02:46] getting those same advantages it doesn't show up in the numbers.

[00:02:49] So there's not a lot of allies out there right now for women

[00:02:53] involving to those leadership roles.

[00:02:56] The other thing that I see is when firms are putting women into place,

[00:02:59] sometimes they're putting them into place for name only and not giving them

[00:03:03] the autonomy or the authority to actually lead, which is a big problem.

[00:03:08] It kind of chips away at the whole culture of the law firm when they're

[00:03:11] doing it for reasons that aren't authentic to the firm and the message

[00:03:16] behind why they're actually putting somebody in place.

[00:03:19] And that's the other large issue that I see as it relates to the challenges.

[00:03:24] And so have you worked with clients where that's the case within their

[00:03:27] organization before where somebody is being put into a role and there's no

[00:03:30] real authority behind her?

[00:03:32] Yeah, I mean it happens every day and it's not just with women.

[00:03:34] I see this happening with men too, but I think sometimes people are

[00:03:40] putting people into place and leadership is putting people into place

[00:03:43] because for the wrong reasons maybe they're putting them into place

[00:03:47] because they have a large book of business and they feel like they

[00:03:49] need to put them into place to satisfy the ego that might be driving

[00:03:55] around that decision.

[00:03:57] They're not putting the best people into place sometimes in the leadership

[00:04:00] capacity, so they're not really thinking about why would they be a good leader?

[00:04:05] What can they add to this?

[00:04:06] Do they have the management skills to be effective and make an impact

[00:04:10] in a leadership capacity?

[00:04:12] So I think that those are some of those challenges that I've seen

[00:04:16] personally and that we work with firms every day as it relates to

[00:04:21] coaching individuals and helping them get to that next level.

[00:04:25] And so where do you think most people can make improvements,

[00:04:29] whether it's a man or even a woman that's in a leadership role?

[00:04:32] And let's say you're coaching somebody.

[00:04:34] How do you coach them to become more effective in their leadership skills?

[00:04:39] Well, what's really interesting is I don't know if you've ever read

[00:04:42] the book, Confidence Code, which is by Claire Shipman and I can't

[00:04:47] remember the other person that co-writes it.

[00:04:49] But it's a really good book and it goes into the science of men

[00:04:52] versus women and kind of what happens in the psyche around just

[00:04:57] the belief system around whether they can do something or not.

[00:05:01] And what it shows is that for men, if they're going for a job,

[00:05:06] let's say, they feel like they have to be qualified at 60% of the

[00:05:10] job to apply for it.

[00:05:12] Women feel like they have to be competent in 100% of the job to apply for it.

[00:05:16] Oh, wow.

[00:05:17] So it really goes to the whole psyche around can I do this?

[00:05:20] Would I be effective at it?

[00:05:22] So when I'm coaching people, whether it's a man or a woman and

[00:05:25] they're feeling like they're maybe not ready for it or they're worried

[00:05:29] about kind of stepping into that role, it's really about getting them

[00:05:33] to understand their power and controlling the narrative that they set

[00:05:37] for themselves and understand what they want from a career trajectory

[00:05:40] and making sure that they're putting those building blocks in place

[00:05:44] to kind of get to where they want to be.

[00:05:46] And that looks different for everybody, but it's really kind of

[00:05:49] doing that self-analysis, understanding where their strengths are,

[00:05:53] where their weaknesses are, where they may come off as

[00:05:57] unintentionally disturbing relationships in a way that they hadn't intended to.

[00:06:03] Just kind of understanding more about themselves.

[00:06:05] I think that's the first step that we all have to do, just as a reality check

[00:06:09] of self-evaluation and then figuring out where can they apply those strengths

[00:06:15] and not just strengths but areas that they want to improve and they want to focus on

[00:06:19] into their career path to kind of really define where they want to be

[00:06:24] in three to five years.

[00:06:25] Right.

[00:06:26] And then we start building up how can we get there?

[00:06:29] And it starts with kind of understanding and controlling their narrative.

[00:06:32] Yeah, that's really interesting.

[00:06:33] I'm sure that your clients tell you these are what I think my weak spots are.

[00:06:39] How can I ameliorate that deficit?

[00:06:41] So let me ask you this, how do we become aware of where those pitfalls are?

[00:06:47] Because as you're saying this, I'm thinking about myself and how do I really know?

[00:06:52] You know, how do I really know where that weak spot is?

[00:06:54] What do you recommend for somebody who really see where they're at?

[00:06:56] That's really interesting.

[00:06:57] And it's hard for people to understand where their weak spots are, quite frankly.

[00:07:02] So we do a lot of different things.

[00:07:03] One of the things that we do is we work with leadership to kind of get an analysis

[00:07:08] from them of the partners that we're working with to understand where they

[00:07:12] think their strengths and weaknesses are.

[00:07:15] Then we do another evaluation with those particular people to kind of evaluate,

[00:07:20] like are we seeing eye to eye on this?

[00:07:22] Are they matching up where they think their strengths and weaknesses are?

[00:07:26] The other thing that we always do for everybody that we do coaching with

[00:07:29] is a disc analysis.

[00:07:30] And there's several different types of analysis out there.

[00:07:34] I like discs because it not only shows your strengths, but it also shows

[00:07:38] where your weaknesses could be and where you may be unintentionally,

[00:07:42] you know, disturbing relationships were things that you hadn't thought of before.

[00:07:46] And you're seeing it in black and white.

[00:07:48] So it's a behavioral test.

[00:07:50] You can't game the test.

[00:07:52] I've taken it several times.

[00:07:53] I've tried to game it, but I always end up in the same place.

[00:07:56] And as I read my results, I'm like, yep, that's me.

[00:08:00] That's me.

[00:08:01] You know, so it's good for self-improvisation and evaluation.

[00:08:05] So I like those kind of tests.

[00:08:06] And there's other ones out there like there's Gallop's Strength Finder,

[00:08:11] which is also very good, but it points out your strengths and not

[00:08:14] necessarily your weaknesses.

[00:08:15] Myers-Briggs is also a personality test.

[00:08:18] But I think disc is really good because it is based in science

[00:08:21] and you kind of get both sides of your personality.

[00:08:25] Tell me about then.

[00:08:26] I actually took that several years ago.

[00:08:28] I found it very insightful and it did show me where my week spots were,

[00:08:32] which I kind of knew, you know, attention to detail.

[00:08:34] It's just not a big thing.

[00:08:35] I mean, well, of course it is at work.

[00:08:37] It's a very big thing to those listening on the show.

[00:08:40] I never dropped the ball on that, but it gave me some insight into

[00:08:43] where I really need to spend time into really shoring up weak areas.

[00:08:46] So kind of describe that.

[00:08:48] What does the DISC mean?

[00:08:49] How does that?

[00:08:50] Yeah.

[00:08:50] So it's a four-part quadrants of circles and wherever you land on the

[00:08:56] spectrum is kind of where your personality sits.

[00:09:00] D is dominance, so it's direct personality.

[00:09:04] You're very focused, targeted, results oriented.

[00:09:08] There's then the I, which is all about influence, very social people,

[00:09:12] kind of the extroverts that we typically think of.

[00:09:15] The Ss are steady and conscientious, very focused

[00:09:19] and more of the worker bees.

[00:09:21] And then we have the Cs that are conscientious and they're very focused on accuracy.

[00:09:27] A lot of the attorneys that we coach fall in the C category,

[00:09:30] but what's really interesting is that what we find is when we work with law firms

[00:09:36] for many years and work with different practice groups,

[00:09:40] a lot of times we'll find the same type of people that we get over and over.

[00:09:45] So if they have a lot of Cs, we'll end up seeing a lot of Cs.

[00:09:47] So you attract the people that you feel most comfortable with.

[00:09:52] And I think that that's really interesting.

[00:09:54] But what I like about Disk is I'm a D.

[00:09:58] So I am somebody who's very results oriented and very direct.

[00:10:03] How this can be applied, especially in a sales capacity,

[00:10:06] is I know that I am from a business development context.

[00:10:10] I am very driven on just getting a sale done.

[00:10:14] Like, and I kind of get I want to get to that yes or no quickly.

[00:10:18] If I'm working with somebody who is a C, they're all about the numbers.

[00:10:22] Like they want to understand like how does this actually relate?

[00:10:25] Like what is the business case for this?

[00:10:27] So I have to approach my business development sales in a different way.

[00:10:32] So it's good to kind of understand where I am,

[00:10:34] but also ask questions of the person that I'm talking to

[00:10:38] to understand where they are so I can deliver my message

[00:10:41] in a way that's going to resonate best.

[00:10:43] Yeah, that's great.

[00:10:44] My business partner is an I.

[00:10:46] So she is big picture, very social, and we mesh really well

[00:10:51] because we have different personalities and different strengths

[00:10:55] that we bring to our partnership.

[00:10:57] And we have people that are on our team that balance us out,

[00:11:00] that are on the C and the S as well.

[00:11:02] So I like looking at it from a lens of how can we all work together

[00:11:09] productively and find those people that help balance us out as teams.

[00:11:14] And that's good to look at not just from your internal team,

[00:11:16] but also your client perspective as well.

[00:11:18] That's great.

[00:11:20] So let me ask you this about leadership.

[00:11:22] I know that empathy and listening is a very big part of it.

[00:11:26] And what's interesting in my life,

[00:11:27] my wife who used to be a social worker then was at home.

[00:11:31] She actually volunteers.

[00:11:32] She's on the vestry of our Episcopal Parish.

[00:11:34] So she in her first time is in a leadership role.

[00:11:37] And I'm sure you know people in volunteer modes,

[00:11:40] you have to use real leadership because they can bail on you

[00:11:43] at any time.

[00:11:44] And there's no consequence for quitting the committee, right?

[00:11:48] And I saw that I think that she's built a lot of trust

[00:11:52] in the organization because she listens to people

[00:11:54] and she has a lot of empathy.

[00:11:56] How do you think people can bring those skills

[00:11:59] to the workplace?

[00:12:00] And do you think women have an advantage over men

[00:12:02] in that area?

[00:12:03] So there's been some studies on this too

[00:12:05] from an empathy perspective.

[00:12:07] Attorneys actually rate very low on empathy scores,

[00:12:10] like really, really low.

[00:12:12] I am lower on an empathy score and that's partly due

[00:12:15] to my disk behavioral style.

[00:12:18] And I know that about myself.

[00:12:19] So I actually have to practice empathy.

[00:12:22] When I go into situations, I have to ask more questions.

[00:12:26] I have to be concerned in a different way.

[00:12:27] I learned a lot of these skills when I was managing

[00:12:30] internally at the last place that I worked

[00:12:33] where I was managing a team very hands-on

[00:12:36] and some of them just communicated a little bit

[00:12:39] differently.

[00:12:39] They wanted to have a conversation about what

[00:12:41] we did on the weekends where I was like, it's Monday morning.

[00:12:44] Let's get to work.

[00:12:45] Let's get to work, right?

[00:12:46] I need to step back and actually get to know my people

[00:12:49] and understand what makes them tick, how they're going

[00:12:53] to be motivated.

[00:12:54] And that is all part of empathy.

[00:12:57] I do think women are better at empathy,

[00:12:59] but I think that it's not a gender thing.

[00:13:02] I think it really is kind of based on your personality.

[00:13:05] But it's something that you can train yourself

[00:13:08] to be more empathetic and be aware of it.

[00:13:11] That's great.

[00:13:11] That's great.

[00:13:12] So tell me a time where you coached a female executive

[00:13:15] or female attorney, female leader, somebody

[00:13:17] that's new in the leadership role.

[00:13:19] What were some of the challenges she was facing?

[00:13:22] Would any of those challenges be unique because of her gender?

[00:13:25] And how do you think she overcame those challenges

[00:13:28] to become successful in that role?

[00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:30] So I think for a lot of women that I coach,

[00:13:33] one of the things that's a trend that I kind of see

[00:13:36] is that they are very, number one,

[00:13:40] they're very shy about bragging about themselves.

[00:13:43] And self-promotion is really, really difficult for them to do.

[00:13:49] So it's hard sometimes to authentically describe

[00:13:54] a win that you've had or something

[00:13:56] that you're involved in because you don't want to look

[00:13:58] like you are self-promoting.

[00:14:00] And that's something that I see men doing a little bit more

[00:14:03] comfortably than women.

[00:14:05] I also see, and this is more specific to the law firm model,

[00:14:09] but I see that a lot of the women I coach

[00:14:12] are having trouble with equity conversations,

[00:14:15] both from getting to that equity level as well as compensation

[00:14:20] around origination sharing.

[00:14:22] That is something that's really, really hot right now.

[00:14:25] And it's beholden upon the person in most firms

[00:14:29] to ask for equity.

[00:14:31] Partners aren't giving away equity.

[00:14:33] Most of the time on cases and they're getting women involved.

[00:14:36] And a lot of times the women are shy about asking for that

[00:14:40] and they just kind of go about doing their work

[00:14:43] even when the client is connecting with them directly

[00:14:46] and not even involving their relationship partner.

[00:14:49] So it's really kind of getting the women

[00:14:51] to start asking for things and start promoting themselves

[00:14:55] and advocating for themselves.

[00:14:57] I think that that's really important.

[00:14:59] And it's something that is missed on us a lot

[00:15:02] because we're always as a gender kind of waiting

[00:15:05] for people to appreciate us versus kind of being

[00:15:08] on the forefront of asking for forgiveness instead

[00:15:12] of permission.

[00:15:13] Right.

[00:15:13] So what advice would you give to someone where tomorrow

[00:15:17] they have a meeting and they need to bring this up?

[00:15:20] And this might be a conflict in terms of causing conflict,

[00:15:25] not a legal conflict, but it might be a stressful

[00:15:28] conversation.

[00:15:29] Let's just put it that way.

[00:15:31] How would you coach that female executive or female attorney

[00:15:34] to really steer that conversation?

[00:15:36] It's all about being prepared for it.

[00:15:38] So having some practice around what I actually

[00:15:42] want to get across, what are those key points that I want

[00:15:45] to deliver, how might I respond thinking

[00:15:49] through the different scenarios and practicing your words.

[00:15:52] I know it sounds strange, but having a conversation

[00:15:55] with a friend or your partner around this

[00:15:59] is how this might go.

[00:16:00] Can I just practice on you?

[00:16:01] Can I do some role playing?

[00:16:03] It really does help with just making sure

[00:16:06] that the words that you're saying are authentic to you.

[00:16:08] So it just kind of flows with the conversation.

[00:16:11] And you're prepared for any kind of comeback

[00:16:14] that the other person might have.

[00:16:16] So you're not based in a motion,

[00:16:18] and you can be very factual with how

[00:16:20] you're delivering your message.

[00:16:22] Yeah, that's great advice.

[00:16:24] What's interesting, I think, especially

[00:16:26] in the legal environment, is that you do see firms

[00:16:28] putting women in position of leadership.

[00:16:30] And I've seen it where they've done it,

[00:16:32] and they actually give them the authority.

[00:16:34] I made a placement last year.

[00:16:35] It was a female attorney.

[00:16:37] She joined a big firm where the Washington Managing

[00:16:40] Partner was a female attorney.

[00:16:41] The US Global Managing Partner was a female attorney.

[00:16:44] And the firm's Global Managing Partner

[00:16:47] was a female attorney.

[00:16:48] But I thought what was interesting,

[00:16:50] nobody ever brought that up.

[00:16:51] But I thought that's unique, and that's something

[00:16:53] that I would bring up, especially to female candidates

[00:16:56] that I'm talking to now when I'm working with this firm still.

[00:16:59] But I thought it really was a really good story,

[00:17:03] a really good narrative.

[00:17:05] How do you think organizations can really pick and choose

[00:17:08] and find the successful female attorneys or leaders that

[00:17:12] have good leadership skills?

[00:17:13] What do you think their criteria should be,

[00:17:16] and who's going to get put into that leadership role?

[00:17:18] That's an interesting question.

[00:17:20] I think in your particular case,

[00:17:22] I think what's really interesting with the story

[00:17:24] that you just told is it was part of the culture

[00:17:27] and the fabric of their firm.

[00:17:29] So they weren't doing it just to be

[00:17:32] on the forefront of their clients' minds,

[00:17:36] having this non-gender bias leader.

[00:17:39] And I think that that's important because they weren't

[00:17:41] all about the self-promotion side of it,

[00:17:44] or the firm promotion side of it.

[00:17:46] It was just part of the culture.

[00:17:47] But it really is very important for top down

[00:17:51] when you're talking about your associate development.

[00:17:54] Because I think law school has just flipped

[00:17:56] and now there's more women in law school again

[00:17:59] than there is men coming through.

[00:18:02] So it's interesting that we have all these women

[00:18:04] that are interested in professional services and legal,

[00:18:07] but they're not rising to the top all of this time.

[00:18:10] And I think that it really is, to your question,

[00:18:14] it's finding those people,

[00:18:16] and those are different skill sets of what a leader is

[00:18:19] versus what a good business developer is,

[00:18:21] versus what a manager is, versus what a worker be is.

[00:18:24] And finding those people

[00:18:26] and really investing in those people.

[00:18:28] And this is a really big challenge for a lot of law firms

[00:18:31] and professional service firms

[00:18:33] because they don't wanna play favorites on things.

[00:18:37] But sometimes you have to play favorites.

[00:18:38] If there is somebody who is excelling in one area,

[00:18:42] you need to invest in them.

[00:18:43] You need to really show that you are interested

[00:18:47] in helping their career path.

[00:18:49] So whether that's giving them a mentor

[00:18:51] or giving them opportunities to succeed

[00:18:53] in that particular lane, that's really important.

[00:18:56] And it's also important for those other people

[00:18:59] that you're guiding to find what their lane is.

[00:19:02] Maybe it's not leadership.

[00:19:04] Maybe they're a great recruiter

[00:19:07] and they be a great hiring partner one day.

[00:19:10] So it's really finding where is that career development lies

[00:19:14] and really fostering that for everybody.

[00:19:17] So it's almost making sure

[00:19:18] that everybody has a career plan in place

[00:19:21] and really trying to feed and guide them.

[00:19:24] Let me ask you this question.

[00:19:25] What do you think men can do to be better allies?

[00:19:28] Cause I think the day my daughter was born,

[00:19:31] I had a stake in the future of how the women

[00:19:33] are treated in the world of work.

[00:19:35] And I found that my perspective changed.

[00:19:38] And before it's absolutely important

[00:19:40] that it's fair and equitable for women in the workplace.

[00:19:44] But when my daughter was born,

[00:19:46] then I really want the world to change.

[00:19:48] What do you think men can do to be better allies

[00:19:50] of women in the workplace?

[00:19:52] Well, I've heard that story several times.

[00:19:53] So I think men need to have daughters

[00:19:55] because that really does kind of change

[00:19:57] your mindset on things.

[00:19:59] I think that a lot of times it's more of a talk

[00:20:04] and you're talking the talk instead of walking the walk.

[00:20:07] I hear a lot of people saying their advocates

[00:20:10] and trying to bolster women.

[00:20:13] But one of my friends is really good

[00:20:16] into like the data analytics and everything.

[00:20:19] And we were doing a survey with ALM.

[00:20:21] I don't know if you are familiar with ALM,

[00:20:23] but we were doing a survey with them

[00:20:25] about a year and a half ago.

[00:20:26] And we started talking about the social analytics

[00:20:30] around everything.

[00:20:30] So when somebody is putting out there like,

[00:20:34] please congratulate my fellow colleague, Sarah,

[00:20:38] for making partner, right?

[00:20:40] That's great that they're putting that out there.

[00:20:42] What are they also doing on their other social media posts?

[00:20:46] Are they engaging with other women on,

[00:20:50] like what does the behavior look like behind the curtain?

[00:20:53] Is it just promotion for this one time?

[00:20:57] Are they actually walking the walk

[00:20:59] with other things that they're doing?

[00:21:01] And social media is a great place

[00:21:02] that you can kind of dive in and look at that.

[00:21:04] What their social media preferences are,

[00:21:07] how they're actually engaging and promoting.

[00:21:09] And it's really fascinating to kind of dive into that.

[00:21:12] It's something that I hadn't looked at before,

[00:21:16] but that's just one case.

[00:21:17] And that's a very visible case because it's out there.

[00:21:21] And I don't think people are kind of understanding that.

[00:21:23] So I'm very conscious of that when I am out there promoting

[00:21:27] on social media, I wanna make sure that I am balanced

[00:21:29] in whatever I'm talking about

[00:21:31] because you do kind of leave a footprint

[00:21:33] of everything that you're putting out there for yourself.

[00:21:35] Absolutely right, absolutely right.

[00:21:37] So let me ask you this as we bring things

[00:21:39] to a close, Jylyth.

[00:21:40] You could give three action steps.

[00:21:42] What can somebody or a female in a leadership role,

[00:21:45] what action steps can they take

[00:21:47] to become more effective in that role?

[00:21:50] Yeah, so I think to your point about the allies,

[00:21:53] I think the first one is finding an advocate and an ally.

[00:21:56] And that is really important.

[00:21:58] I think finding who your circle of influence is,

[00:22:03] who that network is for you.

[00:22:05] I think of it as a board of advisors.

[00:22:07] I actually have a board of advisors for myself.

[00:22:09] And I think that that's really powerful

[00:22:11] to be able to have people, men and women

[00:22:14] that you can connect with

[00:22:15] and can be sounding boards for different things.

[00:22:19] I call on them for the last 20 years.

[00:22:22] They've just been kind of my stable people

[00:22:24] that I can go to.

[00:22:25] So I think that that's first and foremost

[00:22:28] the most important thing that you can do is

[00:22:30] surrounding yourself with the right people.

[00:22:32] That's great.

[00:22:33] The second thing I think is really important

[00:22:35] is owning your narrative, like controlling your narrative,

[00:22:38] what you want that to be,

[00:22:39] what you want that to look like

[00:22:41] and thinking through how is my perception out there?

[00:22:45] And one thing that I always kind of go back to

[00:22:48] is there was a lawyer that I used to work with

[00:22:51] at the firm that I was at most recently.

[00:22:54] And it was about 10 years ago

[00:22:56] and he had a black and white picture where he had hair.

[00:23:00] And he was no longer with hair.

[00:23:04] It was about 30 years later

[00:23:06] and we wanted to change his picture.

[00:23:08] And he was hell bent on not doing that.

[00:23:11] And it's the perception that's out there.

[00:23:15] Yeah, right, right.

[00:23:16] So when he went to meet people,

[00:23:17] I actually had a client that came to me

[00:23:19] and said that they were shocked when they met him

[00:23:22] because he looked nothing like his picture.

[00:23:24] And that's telling and it goes, it erodes trust.

[00:23:28] You don't think about that, but it really does.

[00:23:31] So making sure that whatever's out there

[00:23:33] is reflective of who you are

[00:23:36] and what you want people to know about you.

[00:23:39] So controlling that narrative.

[00:23:41] And I think the third thing would just be,

[00:23:45] really kind of thinking about

[00:23:46] what you want from your career.

[00:23:48] And one of the things that we start with

[00:23:50] whenever we start coaching

[00:23:51] is getting people to think about why they went to law school.

[00:23:56] What made you decide you wanna be an attorney?

[00:23:58] Or what made you decide you wanted to be an accountant

[00:24:01] or a financial advisor?

[00:24:02] Like, what was it that brought you there?

[00:24:04] Because a lot of times they go in,

[00:24:07] my son's in college right now

[00:24:08] and he's going to try to find what he wants to do

[00:24:12] and he's gonna land in something.

[00:24:14] And it may not be what he wants to land in.

[00:24:17] It may be where the job is pushing him.

[00:24:19] And a lot of times within professional services,

[00:24:22] especially within legal, you go into a firm

[00:24:26] and you're kind of put where the need is, right?

[00:24:28] And that's kind of your path.

[00:24:31] And you kind of go towards that path

[00:24:34] thinking that you wanna make partner

[00:24:36] and you don't take a step back to think about

[00:24:38] is this what's making me happy?

[00:24:39] So a lot of people get to that partnership stage

[00:24:44] and they're like, I'm not happy.

[00:24:46] Why am I not happy?

[00:24:47] Where was the disconnect?

[00:24:49] It's because you didn't take stock

[00:24:51] in where you really wanted to be

[00:24:53] at the start of your career

[00:24:54] and check in occasionally to make sure

[00:24:57] that am I on the right path?

[00:24:59] Is this still what I want for my life?

[00:25:01] Because I've seen attorneys that go to law school,

[00:25:04] spend hundreds of thousand dollars at Harvard,

[00:25:07] get to that stage where they're at an equity level

[00:25:10] and they're like, this is not what I thought

[00:25:12] it was gonna be.

[00:25:13] I'm gonna go be a baker now.

[00:25:15] I'm gonna go be an artist or they wanna tap into

[00:25:18] a different side of their career

[00:25:20] their passions that they've kind of pushed down for so long

[00:25:25] because they haven't been authentic to themselves.

[00:25:28] That's all great advice, Jill

[00:25:29] and thank you for sharing that

[00:25:30] and thanks for being on the show.

[00:25:31] But before we go, tell us about your company,

[00:25:34] what are the offerings?

[00:25:35] What do you have?

[00:25:35] What do you do that you'd like our listeners to know about?

[00:25:38] And we'll certainly put any links

[00:25:39] that you have on the show notes.

[00:25:41] So for everybody listening here

[00:25:42] if you wanna connect with Jill

[00:25:43] go to the show notes wherever you hear this podcast

[00:25:46] and we'll have all her information there.

[00:25:48] Well, thank you so much Scott.

[00:25:49] So my business is founded in coaching and training

[00:25:53] and that's something that we do

[00:25:54] for both business development, communications

[00:25:57] as well as leadership focus.

[00:25:59] I am right now getting my certification

[00:26:01] to certify others in the leadership capacity

[00:26:03] so I'm pretty excited about that.

[00:26:05] That's great.

[00:26:06] The other thing that we are focused on

[00:26:08] is being an extension of services

[00:26:11] for marketing BD departments.

[00:26:12] We have talent resources that can step in

[00:26:16] with the moments noticed to help support

[00:26:18] marketing BD teams.

[00:26:19] And a third thing that I'm most excited about

[00:26:22] is we've built our own technology.

[00:26:24] So we are tech pernures now, not just entrepreneurs

[00:26:27] and we have a technology that we've invested in

[00:26:30] to be built and it has two sides.

[00:26:33] One is really focused on professionals

[00:26:35] whether it be attorneys or accountants

[00:26:39] or financial that focus on business development efforts.

[00:26:43] And then the other side

[00:26:44] is a project management system

[00:26:45] for marketing BD departments

[00:26:47] that is there to quantify the ROI

[00:26:51] around marketing BD support.

[00:26:53] So I am really excited about that

[00:26:55] and it's all gamified, which is great

[00:26:57] because everybody loves the fun competition side of things

[00:27:00] and I'm just excited to bring that to market as well.

[00:27:03] That's great.

[00:27:04] We'll put that link on the show notes as well Jill.

[00:27:06] Thank you.

[00:27:07] Yeah, thanks for being here.

[00:27:08] Thanks for being back on the show.

[00:27:09] Great job.

[00:27:10] I'd love to have you back on the show

[00:27:11] again in the future, Jill.

[00:27:12] Thanks for being here.

[00:27:13] Love that.

[00:27:14] Thanks, Scott.

[00:27:18] Thank you for listening to the Rain Making Podcast.

[00:27:22] For more information about our recruiting services

[00:27:24] for international law firms,

[00:27:26] visit our website at attorneyssearchgroup.com

[00:27:31] To inquire about having Scott speak

[00:27:33] at your next convention, conference, sales meeting

[00:27:36] or executive retreat, visit therainmakingpodcast.com.