TRP 194: Generating Business Using Podcasts with Robert Ingalls

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Rainmaking Podcast, hosted by high-stakes headhunter, author,

[00:00:19] and professional speaker, Scott Love.

[00:00:24] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast, and my name is Scott Love.

[00:00:27] Thanks for joining me on the show.

[00:00:28] We've got an exciting and an interesting episode for you today.

[00:00:32] Robert Ingalls is my guest.

[00:00:34] Now, Robert is a former attorney, but he's also the founder of Law Pods.

[00:00:38] That's a consulting firm that helps attorneys start up and get involved with podcasting.

[00:00:44] Now the things that he's talking about today don't apply just to the legal industry.

[00:00:47] In fact, if you're in professional services, if you're in the business of getting business,

[00:00:52] you're going to learn some unique innovative ways that you can use podcasts to help

[00:00:57] you build relationships with high-health prospects.

[00:01:00] Guess what?

[00:01:01] I've been podcasting since 2009.

[00:01:03] I've done this not for living, but to build my brand and various businesses I've been

[00:01:08] involved in.

[00:01:09] And I can tell you, this is untapped territory.

[00:01:12] And despite of how many podcasts are out there, there's always opportunities to

[00:01:16] get involved in this that will generate business for you.

[00:01:20] So I hope you get some great ideas from my interview with Robert today.

[00:01:24] All of his information is on the show notes wherever you listen to the podcast go there.

[00:01:29] You'll be able to connect with him directly.

[00:01:31] And as always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal intelligence suite of products,

[00:01:36] FirmScape and Leopard BI.

[00:01:38] Push ahead of the pack with the power of Leopard.

[00:01:41] And now here's my conversation with Robert Ingalls.

[00:01:43] I hope you get some great ideas from our discussion today.

[00:01:47] Thanks for listening.

[00:01:48] Hey, this is Scott Love with the Rain Making Podcast.

[00:01:52] Our special guest today is Rob Ingalls.

[00:01:55] And our topic title is Generating Business Using Podcasts.

[00:01:58] Rob, thanks for joining me on the show.

[00:02:00] Hey, it's such a pleasure to be here.

[00:02:02] I really appreciate that invite.

[00:02:04] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:02:05] And I love the expertise you have and related to podcasts.

[00:02:09] So let's just dig into it.

[00:02:10] I'm here for you.

[00:02:11] And so your business, we're going to get to this later, but you help professionals

[00:02:15] in legal get business using podcasts.

[00:02:19] And it's not necessarily somebody doing a show and somebody happens to call them because

[00:02:25] they heard them, but there's other strategies that they can use to get business kind of on

[00:02:30] the front end, not just the back end.

[00:02:33] So kind of dig in.

[00:02:34] What are some of the ideas that you have related to this?

[00:02:36] Where should we start unpacking this topic?

[00:02:38] I mean, my clients are falling into just a couple of different buckets the way they

[00:02:42] use the podcast.

[00:02:43] One of the big ones, and I see this a lot with like a personal injury attorney

[00:02:48] or a family law attorney.

[00:02:49] Like that is they're speaking directly to prospects.

[00:02:52] They're creating content that speaks to a pain point that their customer has in their buying

[00:02:57] journey and they're answering a question because that's really how that buying journey happens

[00:03:02] now.

[00:03:03] That's where you are in the funnel.

[00:03:04] They show up, they have a problem and you know exactly what that problem is because

[00:03:07] you have had a thousand consults where everybody has the same question.

[00:03:12] And that's the content you're making.

[00:03:14] Do I, you know, should I call an attorney before I go to the chiropractor?

[00:03:17] Should I take, can I take half the money in the bank account before I leave them?

[00:03:20] Whatever that stuff is you're making episodes specifically speaking to that pain point, to

[00:03:25] those pain points.

[00:03:26] And so when your clients are doing their research or your prospects are they're finding that

[00:03:30] they're getting to know you like you trust you and you're building that relationship

[00:03:37] during the buying journey in a way that is hard to do with the written word.

[00:03:43] It's even hard to do with video.

[00:03:44] Video is hard.

[00:03:45] What do you think that is?

[00:03:46] Compared to the written word of video?

[00:03:48] Hey, people don't like reading.

[00:03:50] We scan.

[00:03:51] I mean even people like me who spent a good portion of our life in school and reading

[00:03:57] became part of, you know, a central part of your career.

[00:04:00] I'm still, I mean it's bullet points.

[00:04:01] It's moving quick and you're not really, it's hard to feel that person.

[00:04:06] And then the videos are similar.

[00:04:08] Videos are great.

[00:04:09] I love them.

[00:04:10] But the kind of video I like is this kind where we're just riffing.

[00:04:14] But when you bring in that $20,000 crew and you sit there and some people are pretty good

[00:04:19] at it, but then you bring your associate in and they're immediately aware of their hands

[00:04:25] and their eyebrows.

[00:04:27] And they're very stiff and that's hard.

[00:04:30] But with the podcast, it gives you that ability to sit and just have a conversation.

[00:04:34] And after a couple episodes, you kind of forget you're even talking to someone else

[00:04:38] who isn't in the room.

[00:04:40] That's right.

[00:04:41] That's right.

[00:04:42] You let your personality out.

[00:04:43] You leave in some stories.

[00:04:44] You're relatable.

[00:04:45] That's the thing.

[00:04:47] Relatability is what the podcast does because people like doing business with people they

[00:04:51] like.

[00:04:52] That's who we are.

[00:04:53] And when somebody hears your voice and this, I mean, anybody who listens to podcasts understands

[00:04:58] this feeling of you just get that trust with someone.

[00:05:01] Yeah, that's right.

[00:05:02] That's right.

[00:05:03] And I've heard podcasters talk about this.

[00:05:05] They'll get in trouble if you will.

[00:05:08] They'll, some will come up on Twitter from 20 years ago or whatever, you know?

[00:05:12] You'll see they don't really lose their following.

[00:05:14] And I heard one podcaster say, these people know me.

[00:05:18] They've listened to me for a thousand hours and you can't hide in there.

[00:05:22] They know who I am and they know where my heart is.

[00:05:25] And that's one of the things that you can do is people hear your voice and they get

[00:05:28] to understand you and they go, that is someone I want to talk to.

[00:05:32] So let me ask you this.

[00:05:33] Let's see if we can kind of segment this into different categories.

[00:05:36] You talked about different buckets in their buying journey.

[00:05:40] What would this bucket be called?

[00:05:42] Do you have any sort of descriptive name for this bucket, so to speak?

[00:05:46] Yeah, I mean, it's I don't know that I have it written down essentially.

[00:05:49] But when I'm doing this and I'm talking to people about why are we doing your

[00:05:52] podcast because people show up and they're like, I want one, but they don't know why.

[00:05:57] And this is why are we trying to do this?

[00:05:59] And this is talking, you know, developing prospects is we're nurturing

[00:06:03] leads really is what I'll call it.

[00:06:04] I'll say that's the nurturing leads bucket, right?

[00:06:08] OK, good.

[00:06:09] And that's great.

[00:06:10] You know, you want to move to the next bucket?

[00:06:12] Yeah. And let me kind of talk about this for a little bit.

[00:06:14] What I found with my show is that it's kind of like that.

[00:06:18] What am I on? Like episode 190 plus.

[00:06:21] And I found that people when I reach out to them, if they call me or I call

[00:06:25] them, they feel like they know me because I think that relationships

[00:06:29] are built on frequency of contact.

[00:06:30] Absolutely. And, you know, it can be short connections with people.

[00:06:35] But if you can stack those or compress those in a period of time,

[00:06:38] then I think just the frequency increases that feeling of connection.

[00:06:43] What do you think about that? Oh, 100 percent.

[00:06:45] I mean, there's a reason that Doritos shows up on the Super Bowl every year.

[00:06:50] Even if they're not in front of you the rest of the year,

[00:06:52] they're not going to let that game go by without you knowing, oh, no,

[00:06:56] we're still here. We're still doing our thing.

[00:06:59] Top of mind.

[00:07:00] You need to be kind of staying top of mind in front of the people,

[00:07:03] in front of those those prospects that you want to continue to do business

[00:07:07] with, because especially in the age that we're in now where I mean,

[00:07:11] how many LinkedIn messages do you get every day?

[00:07:14] Yeah. Connect with me on LinkedIn so I can sell you something.

[00:07:17] Yeah. And I mean, that's it.

[00:07:19] We could do 30 minutes on that alone.

[00:07:21] But it's so many names come across every single day.

[00:07:26] The world is open to us now.

[00:07:28] We can do business on, you know, every major continent.

[00:07:31] And if you're not top of mind, you are bottom of mind.

[00:07:35] You are gone.

[00:07:36] Right. So what are we calling this one?

[00:07:39] The top of mind approach or top of mind bucket?

[00:07:42] Well, I don't know that I probably niche down a little bit further.

[00:07:46] I'm thinking of who am I trying to stay top of mind with, right?

[00:07:50] And then how do I do that?

[00:07:51] And so the next one, I call it educating referral sources.

[00:07:55] OK, good. Good. Wow.

[00:07:56] And tell me about that. What does that mean?

[00:07:57] So I'll give an example.

[00:07:59] We do a podcast with Michael Cowan in San Antonio,

[00:08:02] a trial or nation's name of the podcast.

[00:08:04] And in that podcast, they talk about being a good trial lawyer.

[00:08:08] They break down some of the most amazing cases

[00:08:11] from some of the greatest trial lawyers, bloodier strategies.

[00:08:14] What did you do here?

[00:08:15] What happened when this happened?

[00:08:16] And they talk about running a law office.

[00:08:18] It's all about being a better trial lawyer,

[00:08:21] managing your office better, just all of that.

[00:08:23] And that isn't talking to prospects at all,

[00:08:26] because prospects don't care.

[00:08:28] Somebody who got re-rended and got hurt doesn't care about any of that.

[00:08:32] Yeah.

[00:08:33] This is for other lawyers.

[00:08:35] This is a way to get other people in the legal community

[00:08:39] to know you like you trust you, you've established your expertise.

[00:08:42] You're staying top of mind because every two weeks

[00:08:45] you're pumping out a new episode that is valuable for them.

[00:08:48] They're starting to like you.

[00:08:50] You know, we do business with people we like.

[00:08:51] So now you are educating and ingratiating yourself

[00:08:55] with people who can send you business.

[00:08:57] That's great.

[00:08:58] So the first bucket we talked about is building relationship,

[00:09:00] I guess, with prospects directly.

[00:09:02] The second one is educating referral sources, right?

[00:09:04] Yes.

[00:09:05] The next big one is networking.

[00:09:08] And this one is, you know, I'll say when I started this business,

[00:09:11] this one wasn't even really on my radar.

[00:09:14] I just didn't, I don't know how I missed it,

[00:09:17] but I didn't see the power of the podcast from a networking perspective.

[00:09:22] I kind of saw it as a nice addition.

[00:09:25] And now I have people that are doing podcasts

[00:09:28] where the listener is very secondary to the podcast's existence.

[00:09:33] It's great.

[00:09:34] They don't, you know, they're building some listeners,

[00:09:36] but that is not their KPI.

[00:09:38] That is not really what they care about.

[00:09:40] They care about being able to have this platform

[00:09:43] so they can reach out and say, hey, Mike,

[00:09:46] I have a podcast where we interview the most successful CFOs.

[00:09:50] I'd love to have you on.

[00:09:52] Here's a couple of episodes from people that you probably know.

[00:09:55] Now you're on a call with Mike

[00:09:57] and you're 30, 40 minutes on the mic getting to know each other.

[00:09:59] He gets to say, oh, he likes you.

[00:10:00] Then you clip it up and you send him these clips of him looking awesome.

[00:10:03] And he has, he feels nice about you now.

[00:10:06] Now, what are the odds that you can have that conversation,

[00:10:09] develop that relationship and get him to feel about you that way?

[00:10:11] If you just call him up and say, Mike,

[00:10:13] you don't know me, but I'd love to talk.

[00:10:15] Yeah, I've heard Henry DeVries call this the Trojan Horse Strategy

[00:10:19] where you're not cold calling.

[00:10:21] They never take that call.

[00:10:23] You're reaching out because I'd like to interview you on my show.

[00:10:26] Right. That's fantastic platform.

[00:10:28] And that one has been huge.

[00:10:31] I love it.

[00:10:32] And then if you can take the first two and weave the other one in,

[00:10:37] now you're in business.

[00:10:39] If you can serve a listener and use it as a valuable networking tool,

[00:10:43] that that's where the business is.

[00:10:45] So have you had clients that have used pretty much all three of these

[00:10:47] buckets as strategy, so to speak?

[00:10:49] Absolutely.

[00:10:50] You know, I have a lot of clients in the first bucket doing nurturing leads.

[00:10:54] And then I have a lot of big law that is in a semi different bucket.

[00:10:59] They're nurturing leads, but they're also they're interested

[00:11:03] in being the first person talking about the thing.

[00:11:05] It's thought leadership.

[00:11:08] New legislation happens.

[00:11:09] They are the first person talking about it.

[00:11:10] And you just start to get to a point where this is where I go to get that

[00:11:14] information.

[00:11:15] And then it is more of a long term play because you don't necessarily

[00:11:19] know if you're speaking to a prospect at the moment.

[00:11:21] But you are getting to a situation where you are seen as the authority.

[00:11:25] And when and if somebody does need, there they go.

[00:11:28] Right? This is great.

[00:11:29] This is great.

[00:11:30] My mind is spinning already with ideas on how attorneys and other

[00:11:34] professionals can use these the way you're talking about.

[00:11:37] Let me kind of go before I ask you this next question,

[00:11:40] are there any other buckets besides nurturing leads,

[00:11:43] referral sources and networking?

[00:11:44] These are the big ones that we do.

[00:11:46] I mean, you can get down into into a strong niche all over.

[00:11:50] But these are the major ways that we're doing it.

[00:11:53] OK, good, good.

[00:11:53] So what are the common pitfalls that when you've worked with

[00:11:57] professionals and they've hired you to help them build their show

[00:12:01] and their strategy and all that, what are some of the bigger pitfalls

[00:12:04] that they need to avoid?

[00:12:06] Consistency, not showing up and doing it is I mean, that's hard.

[00:12:12] You can have this content marketing plan where I mean,

[00:12:16] I feel like anyone in any marketing business has run into this

[00:12:20] where you put out you put out this strategic plan

[00:12:22] where you're going to write all these blog posts and then nobody writes them.

[00:12:25] Yeah, I mean, you go three.

[00:12:26] Then you go to 2017 and that's their last episode and it's still out there.

[00:12:30] And if you really are trying to execute this plan,

[00:12:33] you have to budget this time out.

[00:12:36] And one of the ways we do that is just standing meetings.

[00:12:38] Every third Friday of the month, you are spending an hour here

[00:12:44] and doing it.

[00:12:44] And but that's the nice part of working with an agency

[00:12:47] is now you've got somebody holding you accountable.

[00:12:49] You've got somebody whose job it is to set all this up

[00:12:53] and then you show up and you do the talking.

[00:12:55] But that is something when people are doing it themselves,

[00:12:57] is consistency is huge.

[00:12:59] And then when they're doing it themselves, too,

[00:13:02] too often they're not thinking about the big questions

[00:13:06] before they ever hit record.

[00:13:08] Why am I doing it?

[00:13:10] That's huge because I want to have a podcast.

[00:13:12] Somebody told me I should podcast or all the rage right now.

[00:13:15] And I just start a podcast.

[00:13:17] OK, why?

[00:13:18] Where is this going to turn into money one day?

[00:13:20] Like, what why are we doing it?

[00:13:22] And then once we know why we're doing it, who are we doing it for?

[00:13:25] And so is that avatar, right?

[00:13:27] Yeah. OK, so let me let me come to this also.

[00:13:30] Let me go back to this consistency.

[00:13:33] What would you recommend would be the frequency

[00:13:35] and the length for most shows?

[00:13:36] What have you seen that works well for professionals?

[00:13:39] You know, I'm going to I'm going to lawyer you with this answer.

[00:13:41] It depends. But then I will go further.

[00:13:44] Right. It really does depend because it's it comes to your avatar.

[00:13:48] You think about Joe Rogan's avatar.

[00:13:50] They will listen to a five hour show.

[00:13:52] Yeah, they did just do.

[00:13:54] They're there. A lot of it's for entertainment

[00:13:56] and they're willing to just listen to it over

[00:13:59] three different commutes if they have to.

[00:14:00] They don't mind.

[00:14:01] They're not going to see that episode and think, oh, too long.

[00:14:03] But if this is really dense academic content

[00:14:07] and somebody just needs an answer, your leash is infinitely shorter.

[00:14:11] And so I'm thinking about my avatar.

[00:14:13] What do they want to know?

[00:14:14] What pain point are they struggling with?

[00:14:16] How am I uniquely qualified to address that pain point?

[00:14:19] Because if I'm talking to somebody, if it's personal injury, let's say

[00:14:23] they got in a car accident, they just want an answer.

[00:14:26] They don't want a bunch of fluff.

[00:14:28] And so if you can answer that question in 10 minutes,

[00:14:31] then the length is 10 minutes.

[00:14:32] Do you think people should be afraid of putting out content

[00:14:35] like I'm giving away all my secrets on the podcast

[00:14:37] or not going to call me? What do you think about that?

[00:14:38] I think that's crazy.

[00:14:40] You know, I'll be the first person to say,

[00:14:41] I don't think I have the corner

[00:14:43] on marketing information and knowledge.

[00:14:45] I'm always happy to learn more and change.

[00:14:46] But from my perspective, I think that's insane.

[00:14:49] I've heard it a lot.

[00:14:50] I don't want to say too much.

[00:14:52] I got lawyers that don't want to present CLEs

[00:14:53] because they don't want to give the competition the tricks.

[00:14:55] And from my perspective, you know, I had a mentor years ago

[00:14:59] love this guy to death.

[00:15:00] He said there's always room in the market

[00:15:02] to be better than everyone else.

[00:15:04] And the knowledge is almost never what makes you better.

[00:15:08] Knowledge is everywhere.

[00:15:10] Like almost everything is everywhere.

[00:15:12] There are very few secrets left.

[00:15:14] And so the knowledge isn't really the differentiator anymore.

[00:15:18] It's much larger.

[00:15:19] It's your ability to drive service.

[00:15:21] It's your ability for people to be happy

[00:15:23] and do good work consistently.

[00:15:25] So I think your job is to go out there

[00:15:28] and provide this information to your prospects

[00:15:31] in a way that will make them get just enough

[00:15:33] that they're like, OK, that answers my question.

[00:15:35] I like this.

[00:15:36] And then they say, oh, well, what if I give them all this

[00:15:38] and then they go do it themselves?

[00:15:39] Right. Then that's not a client you wanted in the first place.

[00:15:43] We don't want the DIYers.

[00:15:44] That's a good point. That's a really good point.

[00:15:47] And that goes back to the question that you brought up before.

[00:15:49] Who who is it that you want?

[00:15:51] Who's that avatar?

[00:15:52] And I am speaking to somebody

[00:15:53] who is trying to only spend a thousand dollars a month

[00:15:56] on something and your minimum buy is 10,000.

[00:16:00] Then that's not who you're talking to.

[00:16:02] You should find a way not even have that conversation if you can,

[00:16:04] you know, unless, you know, depending on what your strategy is.

[00:16:07] But you know what I mean.

[00:16:09] So tell me of someone that you've worked with

[00:16:11] and you can't you don't have to mention their name.

[00:16:13] Sure. But you worked with them,

[00:16:14] maybe it was somebody in a big law or solo,

[00:16:18] somebody that's an attorney and they say, I want to do a podcast.

[00:16:22] What are some of the challenges that they faced?

[00:16:24] What were the things that they did that they did well?

[00:16:27] And what were the results that they had to show for their efforts

[00:16:29] and working with you?

[00:16:31] Yeah, I mean, I'll speak to some big law.

[00:16:32] We work with some of the biggest firms in the world

[00:16:35] and a number of our clients in that space

[00:16:38] had started these initiatives themselves.

[00:16:40] And because it really, I mean, you've been

[00:16:43] it sounded like for off the mic, it's not like you've been podcasting

[00:16:45] a hell of a lot longer than me.

[00:16:47] So you know better than anybody what it takes to pull this off.

[00:16:51] And when you start doing it, it doesn't seem that complicated.

[00:16:55] You get a mic and you hit record

[00:16:57] and then you've got the episode great.

[00:17:00] Now what do you do with it?

[00:17:01] And that's where it starts to get complicated.

[00:17:04] Then Apple changes their algorithm.

[00:17:06] So that's where people end up trying to do it themselves.

[00:17:10] And they kind of struggle with it and then they show up.

[00:17:12] And for moment one, the experience is what we've talked about.

[00:17:18] We really want to define everything.

[00:17:21] Why are we doing it? Who are we doing it for?

[00:17:23] How like what's our consistent content plan?

[00:17:25] Because you might have an idea, but then you start talking about that idea

[00:17:28] and you're like, well, OK, that's five episodes.

[00:17:30] What's after that?

[00:17:31] And coming up with a strategy that you can build on over a period of time

[00:17:37] that isn't, you know, is this something that we will run out of?

[00:17:41] Frequently, that's never the case.

[00:17:43] But if it's a super niche issue, it might be.

[00:17:45] And so where is this going?

[00:17:47] Thinking about that next year, because I don't want to talk

[00:17:49] about a podcast that's going to go on for a long time

[00:17:51] without at least knowing where we're going to be in 52 weeks.

[00:17:54] Right, right. So then, you know, to the consistency is mapping out early.

[00:18:00] This is when we're going to do it.

[00:18:02] This is how often we're going to do it, those kind of things.

[00:18:05] And then not letting yourself get tripped up and going, oh, my God,

[00:18:08] we're supposed to have a new episode tomorrow. Yeah.

[00:18:10] So was this an example of one firm that you worked with?

[00:18:14] Well, no, that was I was kind of weaving in different stories here.

[00:18:16] But, you know, I'll give you an example

[00:18:17] of one of the bigger firms I've worked with that had that same similar story.

[00:18:20] They tried it. Sure. Sure.

[00:18:21] And we started working on something and it took the buildup was a while.

[00:18:25] I don't know what you know about working with big firms.

[00:18:27] I think you do.

[00:18:28] But there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen.

[00:18:30] So getting the finally bringing this thing to life took a good bit of time.

[00:18:34] But when it hit, it was exactly what we were looking for, exactly what we wanted.

[00:18:38] We knew exactly who our avatar was.

[00:18:41] And within months, the podcast listenership had grown.

[00:18:46] I mean, especially for a niche podcast like this, not only had it grown.

[00:18:51] It stayed consistent from episode to episode that, you know,

[00:18:54] you want to see those unique listeners, you want to see new listeners,

[00:18:56] but you don't want to ever see that go back down

[00:18:59] where people find it, find it, find it.

[00:19:00] And they go, every episode is really not for me back down.

[00:19:04] So we found that consistency.

[00:19:06] But then we started seeing conversions.

[00:19:08] And that is what turned this client into a major client for us.

[00:19:12] And when I say major client,

[00:19:13] that means it expanded across the across the firm.

[00:19:16] How did those conversions take place?

[00:19:18] If I could ask you that, I'm curious.

[00:19:19] So these they're talking about issues on this podcast

[00:19:23] that if you don't have a company that has, you know, eight or nine figures,

[00:19:27] you wouldn't even understand what this problem is.

[00:19:29] And so those are the listeners and these people turned into clients

[00:19:33] several over the first year became clients because they found them

[00:19:37] through the podcast and they liked the information

[00:19:41] they were learning about it and they started working.

[00:19:43] And I mean, that as a major, major client, you know, like,

[00:19:48] I'm never I'm never going to raise somebody's prices

[00:19:50] because the value is too high.

[00:19:52] But I'm also, you know, at the same time,

[00:19:54] I understand that this is great.

[00:19:57] I'm delivering value here for this client.

[00:20:00] And so when we do have to have those conversations in the future,

[00:20:02] inevitably, you know, where your leverage is a little

[00:20:05] because you understand you always as long as you're delivering value,

[00:20:08] you should never feel bad about charging for it. Right?

[00:20:11] Yeah, that's right. That's a great story.

[00:20:13] So one thing that you mentioned and I want to come back to this,

[00:20:15] you talked about consistency.

[00:20:17] One thing that you said is the avatar might be saying,

[00:20:21] I don't think every episode is for me.

[00:20:23] I don't think I'm going to tune in anymore.

[00:20:25] What do you think are elements of consistency we should look at,

[00:20:30] such as frequency, length of time?

[00:20:33] What do you think what are elements of consistency that should be considered?

[00:20:36] I think that you need to be considering how to create a habit

[00:20:41] because that is what makes your content work well

[00:20:45] is people know if you're weekly, every Monday morning on their drive

[00:20:48] to work, you're there every Monday.

[00:20:51] If you come out on the 15th and the last day of the month,

[00:20:54] they know when they look at their calendar that your show is going to be there

[00:20:58] for them the morning of the 15th and they look forward to it.

[00:21:01] And that's a habit.

[00:21:02] And when we can create habits in our consumer,

[00:21:06] then we're in really, really good shape.

[00:21:08] But the danger there is when you miss your episodes

[00:21:13] and people are expecting it.

[00:21:15] Now, you know, most sane, rational people aren't going to get like mad

[00:21:19] at you or anything, but now you're breaking your relationship down with them a little.

[00:21:23] They're going to then move to something else that morning.

[00:21:26] Yeah, you know, what do you do?

[00:21:27] And then that happens here and there again, and you're breaking the habit.

[00:21:32] And so they're going to go there.

[00:21:33] I like they're not going to say I'm going to stop listening.

[00:21:35] But what's going to happen is they're going to say, well,

[00:21:37] I'll wait until a few more come out and then I'll come back.

[00:21:40] That's not a habit.

[00:21:41] And I have so many of those shows.

[00:21:44] And sometimes it's not even because they didn't release on time.

[00:21:47] It's because I just got overwhelmed with content.

[00:21:49] And then I realize I come back next year and I'm like, oh, man,

[00:21:53] I haven't listened to this podcast in so long.

[00:21:56] But that is that's a really good way if you're thinking every episode,

[00:22:00] every episode, every decision you make with the podcast,

[00:22:04] you're thinking who's the avatar?

[00:22:06] What do they want?

[00:22:07] And that's a way to ensure that every episode is for them

[00:22:11] because I'm thinking about the decisions I'm making,

[00:22:14] what I'm going to be discussing because I don't want my avatar

[00:22:17] to start believing that sometimes this stuff's not for me.

[00:22:21] That's great.

[00:22:21] And I think the theme that I've heard you talk about is coming back

[00:22:25] to who is the avatar?

[00:22:27] What do they want?

[00:22:28] So I think, yeah, I think, I mean, that's what all business

[00:22:30] should be about anyways.

[00:22:31] But the fact that we're thinking about that with our constituents,

[00:22:34] our listeners, who are they?

[00:22:36] What do they want?

[00:22:37] If we thought about that every episode?

[00:22:39] So I think I think that's really, really good advice.

[00:22:41] So one final question that I want to kind of bring things home

[00:22:45] in terms of connecting with people, seeing who listened to our show,

[00:22:49] how many people listen to our show, where they come from.

[00:22:51] Are there any resources that you know are out there

[00:22:54] that podcasters can go to to really find statistics

[00:22:57] that can be helpful and meaningful to them?

[00:22:59] Like for their show?

[00:23:00] That's right.

[00:23:01] Or yeah, for their show.

[00:23:02] Yeah.

[00:23:02] So if you have a podcast, the first place

[00:23:04] stories your hosting provider is looking in the analytics

[00:23:07] on your hosting provider.

[00:23:08] Some have better analytics than others.

[00:23:11] You know, I captivate it's one of my favorites

[00:23:12] that's very accessible for everyday users as well as professionals.

[00:23:17] But you can go in and you can get a really good sense

[00:23:20] of how many downloads are you getting per episode?

[00:23:22] How many unique listeners are you getting per episode?

[00:23:25] You can compare episodes against each other.

[00:23:27] But you can also get down and drill down geographically.

[00:23:30] What countries is it coming from?

[00:23:31] What states, even what cities are you getting a lot

[00:23:34] of your listeners from?

[00:23:36] And so those are good analytics.

[00:23:38] But then you can also do third party analytics.

[00:23:41] You can use there's a bunch of different stuff out there.

[00:23:44] Chartable is a more notable one.

[00:23:46] I think Spotify acquired them over the last few years.

[00:23:49] That's one that we use and you can add that to your RSS feed

[00:23:53] and it'll track and it gives you a little bit better analytics.

[00:23:56] You can get into some IP address tracking.

[00:24:00] You can get maybe an understanding of what companies people are

[00:24:04] that might be listening.

[00:24:05] You know, podcasting hasn't gotten as to the place

[00:24:10] that other forms of marketing are where you can really track

[00:24:13] your lead conversions the same way.

[00:24:15] I'm sure that it's coming.

[00:24:16] It's where the money is.

[00:24:17] I'm positive that there are people working diligently on this.

[00:24:21] But it's not quite there yet, but you can get some pretty solid

[00:24:25] understanding of where things are.

[00:24:27] And then I always tell people if you ask,

[00:24:31] that's a big way to figure out what's going on out there.

[00:24:33] Just ask your listeners to take an action.

[00:24:36] If you have something valuable for them, create a download

[00:24:38] and capture email addresses.

[00:24:40] And I mean, lead generation in your podcast, depending on what

[00:24:43] you're using it for is a very valuable have a CTA in there

[00:24:48] that allows people to jump into your funnel instead of just

[00:24:51] being a listener that shows up as a number on a sheet.

[00:24:54] What does CTA stand for?

[00:24:55] Call to action.

[00:24:57] Oh, good. See, OK.

[00:24:58] Yeah, I'll get out there using all kinds of acronyms.

[00:25:01] That's great.

[00:25:02] So let me ask you then, Rob, if you could kind of bring this

[00:25:05] home for us in terms of three action steps that people can take

[00:25:08] to really get started on this.

[00:25:10] What would those three action steps be?

[00:25:12] You know, I think too many people will get into buying

[00:25:14] mics and all that stuff.

[00:25:16] And I think the action steps are plan.

[00:25:18] The plan is the 100 percent most important thing.

[00:25:20] Why? Why am I doing it?

[00:25:22] Am I doing this to drive referrals?

[00:25:24] Am I doing it because I have questions that I can nurture

[00:25:28] my leads through?

[00:25:30] Can I network this way?

[00:25:32] Lawyers, this is a big one for lawyers.

[00:25:33] They can't call.

[00:25:34] So you can't call someone who you want to work with as a client

[00:25:38] and say, I'd like to work with you as a client.

[00:25:40] And almost every jurisdiction, I think that's a thing you can't do.

[00:25:44] What you can do is hop on a podcast episode and talk to them.

[00:25:46] And then they get, you know, I like to cut of that guy's

[00:25:48] jib, right? Yeah.

[00:25:50] Why are you doing it?

[00:25:51] Who are you doing it for?

[00:25:54] Like, who is that person?

[00:25:55] What do they want to know?

[00:25:55] What are the things that matter to them?

[00:25:57] And then establish what your KPIs are.

[00:26:00] Understand how you are going to measure success with this

[00:26:03] because too many people think download, download, download,

[00:26:06] download. Got it.

[00:26:07] And then they think that, oh, well, this person,

[00:26:10] this show has 5,000 downloads.

[00:26:11] Why am I only getting 500?

[00:26:13] What's the size of your market?

[00:26:14] 500 very well could be amazing.

[00:26:17] I have podcasts that are getting around 200 downloads.

[00:26:22] And this firm will do this podcast till the end of time.

[00:26:26] If they can keep 200 people listening

[00:26:28] because 200 people that would listen to a podcast like this

[00:26:30] are valuable. Absolutely right.

[00:26:33] So number one is plan number two, establish KPIs.

[00:26:36] Is that right?

[00:26:37] Well, I was saying, you know, well, yeah, plan, I guess,

[00:26:39] I mean, I was kind of making that into three, like what is the why?

[00:26:42] OK, got it. Who is the avatar?

[00:26:44] And then establish your KPIs. Got it.

[00:26:46] OK, good, good, good.

[00:26:47] I think that's great.

[00:26:48] I think that's really good.

[00:26:50] That's no you want to roll it out and make sure

[00:26:51] your rollout strategy hits a lot of boxes,

[00:26:54] but there is a lot of boxes in there to fit inside three.

[00:26:57] Yeah, that's right. Wow.

[00:26:58] What a project. But that's worth it.

[00:26:59] And I know you know that from working with your clients.

[00:27:01] I'm seeing what happens to them.

[00:27:03] And so tell us about your services.

[00:27:05] What do you do?

[00:27:06] What do you have that you'd like our listeners to know about?

[00:27:08] You're Robin, we'll certainly put all of your links on our show notes.

[00:27:11] Yeah. So I mean, really, you do the talking, we do the rest.

[00:27:14] That is something that we really try to stick to.

[00:27:16] It's like we work on the strategy.

[00:27:18] We set up the recording environment.

[00:27:19] People show up. They add their guests show up.

[00:27:21] They have a conversation that we record for them professionally.

[00:27:25] We record that video as well in high res.

[00:27:28] Everyone's on a separate track, gives us a lot of editing capability.

[00:27:31] And they hang up and they're done.

[00:27:34] You know, we we engineer the audio.

[00:27:36] We cut the video.

[00:27:37] We cut it into video clips, image quotes, transcripts, show notes,

[00:27:41] publish the video to YouTube, put it on the website,

[00:27:43] make sure it's on every podcast player,

[00:27:44] put those clips out all over social media.

[00:27:47] I mean, showing up 30 minutes and having a conversation

[00:27:50] can be the cornerstone of a content marketing strategy

[00:27:52] when you're doing it like this.

[00:27:53] Absolutely right. And it's nice.

[00:27:54] They can just delegate that to you and go back to practicing

[00:27:58] and not have to worry about that, knowing that your team is doing all this.

[00:28:01] I think that's a brilliant business model.

[00:28:03] Yeah. I mean, I learned that as a lawyer,

[00:28:04] do the thing that you do well and pay people to do the things they do.

[00:28:07] Yeah, absolutely right.

[00:28:08] Well, this is great. I appreciate you being on the show.

[00:28:11] We're going to put like I mentioned the links on your show notes.

[00:28:13] So anybody listening right now, go to wherever you hear this podcast

[00:28:17] and you'll be able to connect with Rob directly.

[00:28:19] And I'd love to have you back on.

[00:28:20] I know there's a lot more that we can talk about.

[00:28:22] So thanks for being a great guest today and sharing all this info with this Rob.

[00:28:25] It's pleasure.

[00:28:26] Really was mine.

[00:28:30] Thank you for listening to the Rain Making podcast

[00:28:33] for more information about our recruiting services for international law firms.

[00:28:37] Visit our website at attorneysearchgroup.com

[00:28:42] to inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention,

[00:28:45] conference, sales meeting or executive retreat.

[00:28:48] Visit the Rain Making podcast.com.