TRP 189: Understanding How Clients and Prospects Think with Rob Mosley

[00:00:00] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:00:07] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:00:10] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:00:16] Who's did by High Stinks Head Hunter, author and professional speaker, Scott Love?

[00:00:23] You're listening to The Rainmaking Podcast and my name is Scott Love.

[00:00:27] Thanks for joining me on the show.

[00:00:29] I've got a special guest today and this is someone that's been a friend of mine for a very long time.

[00:00:33] I've seen him speak on the stage.

[00:00:35] We've even shared the stage before at conferences.

[00:00:38] His name is Rob Mosley.

[00:00:40] Now Rob is a managing partner and senior director of training and development for next level exchange.

[00:00:45] He comes out of the executive search industry where he served as a chief learning officer for management recruiters international,

[00:00:51] responsible for all training and sales development for more than 1100 offices worldwide.

[00:00:56] And my conversation with Rob, we talk about understanding how clients and prospects think.

[00:01:02] If you were involved in business development in any way, this is something you definitely want to hear about.

[00:01:07] Make sure you connect with Rob, go to the show notes wherever you listen to this podcast and connect with him on LinkedIn and follow him there.

[00:01:15] As always, this show is sponsored by Leopard Solutions, legal intelligence suite of products, firm escape and leopard BI.

[00:01:21] Push ahead of the pack with the power of leopard.

[00:01:24] And now here's a conversation with my good friend Rob Mosley. Thanks for listening.

[00:01:29] Hey, this is Scott Love with Rainmaking podcast.

[00:01:33] I've got a good close friend someone I've known for a long time.

[00:01:36] Rob Mosley, he is in the house. He is what this today on the show.

[00:01:39] And we are talking about how understanding how clients and prospects think.

[00:01:44] Rob, thank you for joining me on the show today.

[00:01:46] Scott is my privilege to be with units. Good to see you again.

[00:01:50] Yeah, this is great. We go way back. Way back. I don't want to go everybody with that old story but let's get right into it.

[00:01:56] Understanding how prospects and clients think. And when you told me that as the title for our show today, they reminded me of that no Gibson movie.

[00:02:05] Well, women what where he's in that business meeting and he hears what his prospects are thinking as giving the presentation.

[00:02:12] What if we could do that? Right? What if we can actually think here with their actually thinking.

[00:02:16] So how do we do that Rob? How do we get in the mind of our prospects and our clients?

[00:02:21] You know, it's so interesting Scott because I think historically so many things we get taught in our industry are about us.

[00:02:29] I always laugh Rob universe right and start with my objectives and what I want out of this conversation.

[00:02:35] Right. That's right because the sun revolves around each of us right now.

[00:02:39] And our organization teaches what we call principal based models and discussions.

[00:02:45] And a great principle says this you can't know where you are in your search process and once you first understand where the client or prospect is in their decision process.

[00:02:55] And if you think through that, you're like well of course that makes sense.

[00:02:59] So we try to challenge the lens around which we look and what we know is that any human being including our clients and prospects.

[00:03:08] On some I check they are go through eight specific stages when they're making decisions and most of us tend to play in only about half those because that's what's important to us.

[00:03:18] That's interesting so I mean, so we're not they're not thinking through a lot of them phase number one phase number two they just go through this.

[00:03:24] That's what you've discovered right? Yeah, it's well, you know, it's a scientific approach to how people make important decisions.

[00:03:30] And what's interesting about is that we tend to pick up on what we call the need whether that be a product or a service or solution and we drive in.

[00:03:40] But the challenges God is that that I mean, I promise you you didn't wake up this morning and say you know what Rob? I think I'll have a need.

[00:03:46] Well, no need you might have personal professional is a result of either a larger goal you're trying to achieve or a problem you're going to try and solve.

[00:03:56] So what we talk about is the fact the first two stages and anyone making a decision, including you know even on the candidate side.

[00:04:02] What are the organizational goals and objectives? What are the departmental goals and objectives?

[00:04:06] What is this individual goal objective? How is this person measured now that's an interesting conversation because that's what's important to them.

[00:04:15] And we skip that we skipped their pain points to problem and challenges we go right to what I call got a chicken need a chicken want a chicken.

[00:04:21] I want to talk to you a little bit about what you need.

[00:04:24] And it's just kind of fascinating and I know people making fun saying I don't do that a lot of people do it.

[00:04:29] And our industries tend to teach that it's not a bad approach, but I think we start to sound like what I call the sea of sameness.

[00:04:39] And this idea of understanding not just the need but what's driving that need that consulted business decision.

[00:04:47] You know, it's a good conversation. Let me stop you right there and I think you said something significant.

[00:04:52] You said a lot of things that were significant but you said it's not just the need is what's driving the need. Is that right?

[00:04:57] Yes sir. What does that mean exactly?

[00:04:59] Well, he's a good example. If I were to ask someone in an industry what is your goal for this call.

[00:05:05] I promise you would probably be around something that they need out of the conversation.

[00:05:10] That itself is a mistake. It's not about us.

[00:05:14] I like to think first of all an objective any conversation as this.

[00:05:19] As a result of this conversation, I want my prospect to do what?

[00:05:26] What is it I want them to think field believe and remember about me in my organization?

[00:05:30] What is it I want them to be able to do? And that sounds like a subtle difference but it's it's an entirely different lens.

[00:05:38] So is that where you think most people are? They're at that point. I just want my prospect to do this. I want them to buy from me.

[00:05:45] Whatever it is. Is that kind of a common trend that you see?

[00:05:48] Well, it isn't and I think it starts with a lack of preparation.

[00:05:52] And I hear this all day long hand. I am so busy.

[00:05:56] I don't have time to sit down and prepare for this conversation.

[00:05:59] First I'd suggest you don't have time not to.

[00:06:02] And the fact that we have so many tools at our resources like the LinkedIn's of this world,

[00:06:07] people's websites 10 case all these great tools that allow us to have insight into a situation or an individual

[00:06:14] or the role entitled before we ever pick up the phone.

[00:06:17] And that's typically what I think we should be starting with in the conversation.

[00:06:21] In preparation for this call, I know this about you or understand your organization is going through this merger change.

[00:06:28] I understand industry regulation is having an impact on your next quarter results.

[00:06:35] I know your world. I speak your language. That's a beautiful way to start off what I call a true client centric conversation,

[00:06:45] rather than me playing the show up and throw up about what we can offer them.

[00:06:48] So let me let me ask you this. A true client centric conversation.

[00:06:55] What would be I'd say kind of a warning sign that I should be looking for or you whoever's listening,

[00:07:04] the listeners should be looking for or paying attention to the tell us where more not going down that path.

[00:07:11] Yeah.

[00:07:12] So we talked about this idea about having some insight into a person or the organization and there are tools out there,

[00:07:18] but I'll tell you a really interesting simple trick.

[00:07:21] Scott, you just shared that what I love that beautiful tracker and I love the beauty and simplicity of it on your whiteboard.

[00:07:27] I got one just a simple take the title.

[00:07:31] The person you tend to call on the most right? It might be CEO. It might be CFO. It might be vice president sales and HR vice.

[00:07:40] Whatever it is, take that title. And then ask yourself this question.

[00:07:46] How is this person measured in their role?

[00:07:50] What are the big buckets that person looks at every day? So if you look at a CEO, you think of things like growth, margin, velocity, speed of market,

[00:08:01] market trends, customer trends, you know, image both corporate and individual.

[00:08:06] And there'd be some other ones in there. Those are stages one and two in a client decision process.

[00:08:12] I will tell you if you come up with your top six. And if you look at it, those are the activities and tasks

[00:08:19] that that person has to achieve to keep their job or the problems they have to solve.

[00:08:25] And if our opening few minutes in client development isn't discussing that, I'd suggest a big red flag should be going off and we're off the mark because most of us play product or service dump.

[00:08:36] And it will be.

[00:08:37] Yeah. And I bet they hear those conversations all the time. What do you think goes on in the client's mind when we are making this a client-centric conversation?

[00:08:46] What do you think happens to them?

[00:08:49] Well, what we know is in the first few seconds of a conversation, someone's thinking, who is this person?

[00:08:55] What are they doing? Even assuming we get lucky enough to have them pick up the phone.

[00:08:59] The next thing they're thinking is, what do they know about me, the client and my organization in my world?

[00:09:05] And if I can't connect to let them know that I know their world and speak their language, it's probably going to be a very short conversation

[00:09:13] and my opportunity to reengage has become much less limited.

[00:09:17] So one of the first things we teach out of the gate is what we call a compelling connect, which says, I've done my homework.

[00:09:24] I am prepared for this conversation and I have an understanding of you in your world that might be language, that might be current industry trends, it might be regulatory issues that have changed.

[00:09:37] It may be something on a more personal level about that person in their escalation to a new role.

[00:09:43] We call it insight, which is information beyond just the obvious.

[00:09:47] And it's a powerful moment because they at least take pause and understand that this is a conversation directed or them.

[00:09:54] It's not a script.

[00:09:56] Right, right. So let me ask you this then.

[00:09:58] No, we have this compelling connect.

[00:10:00] How do we get to the point where they're able to share this insight?

[00:10:05] What do we have to do in our conversation to where they really bring the wall down these start telling us this?

[00:10:12] Well, I think that once I've shared that piece of information, typically this has been my experience.

[00:10:18] First of all, they know it's not a mass marketing call.

[00:10:21] They know that I've come to something with this.

[00:10:24] By the way, you know what, I would suggest that a referral is also a great compelling connect.

[00:10:28] Yeah.

[00:10:29] Referral says hey, we share something in common.

[00:10:31] That's going to make someone take pause.

[00:10:33] So what compelling connect can be a lot of different things, but it's unique and it's individualized and tailored to that person.

[00:10:39] I believe it earns us the right to quickly and concisely in one or two sentences share our value in the market in working with CEOs in the mid cap market.

[00:10:51] Similar to your work, we help clients achieve the following or solve the following issues very quick, very tight.

[00:10:59] And then the next thing I want out of it is I'd like to ask you a few questions about your current role to earn the right to be able to have a diagnostic conversation to discovery questions.

[00:11:07] And what we know is that if you follow this framework, it tends to unfold in a natural dialogue and doesn't feel like an interrogation.

[00:11:15] That's great.

[00:11:16] So my question to you is how does this framework work?

[00:11:20] What are kind of the wrongs on that ladder?

[00:11:23] So to speak, where do we really start?

[00:11:25] I know we don't.

[00:11:26] This is like the full day seminar.

[00:11:28] We're getting started.

[00:11:29] We haven't even gotten to point number one yet and already I want to thank you because I've learned things just in the last last 11 minutes.

[00:11:36] But what are kind of the main elements that we should keep top mind about that framework, about that structure?

[00:11:41] Well, it's interesting because there are, and I'm happy to share this.

[00:11:44] And by the way, I wanted to make sure that I give credit where credit's due.

[00:11:47] I've had the privilege of working with a company called the Aquavis Corporation for almost 30 years.

[00:11:52] And the science behind them is brilliant.

[00:11:55] And this is the thoughtful brilliant work of the founder Randall Murphy who's now no longer with us except in spirit.

[00:12:02] And through working with some of the world's greatest brands, they saw consistency in how clients make important decisions from that they identified these eight specific stages.

[00:12:14] And what you find is once you see these eight, by the way, this thing I'm happy to share with anyone.

[00:12:19] So this is not a pitch to buy anything.

[00:12:22] I'm just more than willing to talk about these eight stages.

[00:12:26] What you start to see though is that most of us only plan about half those stages because that's what's important to us.

[00:12:33] And that's what we think value is given and it's not.

[00:12:37] And it's a really eye opening thing to say, man, I'm not even involved with my client at this stage.

[00:12:43] And that's perhaps why they see me as a commodity as a vendor, as an order taker as a place, whatever it's going to be.

[00:12:50] I've lessened my valued proposition by not earning right to play in all eight of these stages over time.

[00:12:57] Right. Right.

[00:12:58] So let me ask you this then because I'm going to learn more and I know we'll probably have you back on the show in the future to kind of dig through this a little bit deeper.

[00:13:06] But what you've shared with me already has shown where I need to grow.

[00:13:10] And I hope people listening can see that there are some things that they need to fix in terms of how they communicate and how they see themselves and how they see that initial start of a new relationship with the prospective client.

[00:13:21] But let me ask you this, let's say there's an organization that you worked with that you've seen that change.

[00:13:26] You saw the challenges at the beginning.

[00:13:28] You saw the changes that they made in order to change how they did client development.

[00:13:34] You saw the results. What kind of was the process that they went through?

[00:13:39] What were some of the big changes they made and what were the results they achieved in really building that trust than having more meaningful client conversations?

[00:13:48] Yeah.

[00:13:49] Well, you know it's interesting. I am.

[00:13:51] I had a client from the years in American Express and one of their financial services group and the CEO is a gentleman named Roger Boulou

[00:13:59] and later on became the CEO of my parent company. So I got a chance to know him.

[00:14:04] He sat in front of a group of over a thousand of us all responsible for client development.

[00:14:09] He said, you know we did something very simple to DanX about how we saw and valued people who would come to sell to us.

[00:14:16] He said if people came in with a limited knowledge and their questions were around products, we would send them straight to procurement.

[00:14:25] If they were interested in focused on providing certain mid-level services, we would send them into HR.

[00:14:33] If they had an understanding of our strategy and were asking the right goal and objective questions

[00:14:41] and asking questions that were positioned strategically for the next three to five years, he said they got to talk to people in the sea suite.

[00:14:49] That's how we made that decision. It let us know what interest they had.

[00:14:52] And I think the ability for us to be able to ask questions that are more what I'll call goal and objective driven and problem and challenge driven

[00:15:01] can change the entire perception of how we are seen in the items and places really about. It's about perception changing.

[00:15:09] Yeah, right, right.

[00:15:11] Do you think that our self-image and how we see ourselves does that have a difference on how we approach our clients in those conversations?

[00:15:18] I think it is. I also think that many of us while we understand we need to quote unquote call high, I think we default to that mid-level range where we tend to feel perhaps a little bit more comfortable.

[00:15:32] And there's nothing well with establishing those relationships not to jump to this but one of the other things that we think seem critical in terms of differentiating ourselves.

[00:15:40] I will love this quote. If you fail to differentiate by your approach with clients and prospects, you're going to have to differentiate by your price.

[00:15:49] Yeah, nobody wants to play that game. And what are the tools we use around decision makers is what we call establishing a three by three strategy.

[00:15:59] And the simplified version says this as I'm establishing a relationship in a new client organization, I would want to aspire to establish three different relationships and ideally at three different levels of an organization and executive level organization.

[00:16:20] The management departmental relationship and this individual project or field relationship.

[00:16:29] And the power with that is not only does he give me more insurance of being able to stay in but it gives me three different lens to look through organization that also means Scott that I've got to have different types of questions for each of those different levels because they all see through a different lens.

[00:16:46] This is interesting. I think from what you said, if I'm in professional services business development, I can't be thinking about myself as much.

[00:16:55] I've got to be focusing on them, especially of you as you had those different levels that you're thinking of because it has to call it will cause me to have to think of, okay, what are the problems?

[00:17:04] I think that's something that that level has, someone that that level has and that whole thing also.

[00:17:09] How do you think people kind of make that transition to really establishing this strategy? Do they read books? Do they go to courses? What do you think people need to do to really get to that point where they can have that kind of client centric strategy?

[00:17:22] Sure. Well, I think those are all great approaches. I'll go back to something that's simple the task of simply saying here's my as I develop my own three by three and account.

[00:17:31] The top a managing partner in the center. It might be someone who is HR centric or has a management role and at the lower piece, it might be an individual researcher or data analyst or even an executive assistant.

[00:17:46] That's established in my three by three. The first thing I want to do is go through that exercise. How is this person measured in their role?

[00:17:54] What are those five or six core buckets that this person is measured by? By the way, like everybody else I've been exploring and playing with AI.

[00:18:05] You can put that into AI and it's amazing what you get back in terms of how people are measured and what's important to them.

[00:18:12] What things do you think Scott are the four areas around which I should be asking questions. And that yourself differentiates me.

[00:18:21] Yeah, and I've always believed that the quality of questions that you ask people make a judgment based on that.

[00:18:26] And I learned that when I got into legal recruiting, I didn't know anything about legal. I was in a different niche.

[00:18:30] And I didn't know enough what to talk about with my firm and my process. So I just asked a lot of questions.

[00:18:35] But I found that doing that helped me to really build that trust with people to really understand what was unique about their niche and their problems and things like that.

[00:18:43] It's kind of like, you know, you just kind of stumble forward and just by being a good question asker,

[00:18:50] you can really connect with people. And you learn to get to the real heart of the issue.

[00:18:55] Not just peeling off one layer of the onion skin but going right to the core of the issue.

[00:18:59] I think people appreciate that Rob.

[00:19:02] No, I could agree more. And I always consider a great discovery question as a super skill.

[00:19:09] First, simply using the right language tells them I know something about you in your industry.

[00:19:16] Just and you even have to let them know what you're talking about asking them the right question tells them at second.

[00:19:23] It now is engaged the most powerful skill and that's active and empathic listening.

[00:19:28] As an industry, we talk and we wait to talk.

[00:19:32] Now while we're waiting to talk, we're thinking so hard about what we want to say next that we continue not to be actively engaged.

[00:19:38] Listening is a diagnostic. It is not about a monologue. It's about a dialogue at it encourages that conversation.

[00:19:45] It engages so many pieces of the puzzle.

[00:19:48] And I love your analogy Scott about peeling back the onion.

[00:19:53] There's a happy to share this with anyone.

[00:19:56] I got really bored during the last six months of the COVID, the world pandemic.

[00:20:02] And I reached out to people who I immensely admired like yourself and said,

[00:20:06] hey, send me your best discovery questions.

[00:20:09] I'll compile them and I'll send you back what I found from my colleagues.

[00:20:13] I've got about 15 pages of what our industries tell us are good discovery questions around goals and objectives,

[00:20:21] around problems and challenges needs analysis, financial factor decision process.

[00:20:27] It's really a fun exercise and you start to realize there are so many beautiful ways to ask differently and elicit more of a response.

[00:20:35] So I agree. I think it's a tremendous and they're twinkies.

[00:20:40] They've got a great shelf life. Like once you get a strong thing, it's around for years, man.

[00:20:46] It ain't going bad on yet.

[00:20:48] That's interesting. So let me ask you one final question here then we'll kind of bring our conversation to a close.

[00:20:53] You mentioned listening is a diagnostic. I've never heard that before, but that just kind of opens up this whole new world of interesting discovery.

[00:21:04] Where did you first conceive of this idea? And how did you get to that point?

[00:21:08] I mean, that's just very deep.

[00:21:10] Very football again. We all drink from well somebody else dug.

[00:21:14] So I'm not taking a lot of credit for the Scott but I'll go back to my brilliant colleagues and I'll listen to one of the first things they taught me to do is to fake it till I make it because it is not human nature

[00:21:26] or someone to be actively engaged in a conversation. If you don't believe me, you have asked your significant other.

[00:21:33] It is tough being the moment with somebody, right?

[00:21:37] So some of the skills that are provide behaviors that are representative is called acknowledging.

[00:21:44] Now most of us do this intuitively, but this is really interesting whether I hear acceptance or whether I hear resistance or indifference.

[00:21:52] The first thing out of my mouth, first of all, is nothing little psychological air.

[00:21:57] We feel such a need to rush in to have the answer.

[00:22:01] That's a huge mistake. My colleague, Stacey Nappleis says this let silence do the heavy lifting.

[00:22:08] Look, that's the second thing out of my mouth is an acknowledgement.

[00:22:12] I hear you. I can appreciate that.

[00:22:15] I can see why on the surface, you would feel that way.

[00:22:18] We know price is an important factor.

[00:22:21] I'm not agreeing. I'm not disagreeing.

[00:22:24] I'm not saying I'm listening to you and what you have to say is important to me.

[00:22:30] It is stunning on a daily basis how many people fail to acknowledge somebody else's comment.

[00:22:37] They go right into the well, let me tell you why we do this or they ask a question which sounds like an interrogation.

[00:22:44] The simple act of acknowledgement changes the dynamics of a conversation, especially Scott in early one where we're trust is thin.

[00:22:53] I've not positioned my legitimacy. I better sound in pathetic.

[00:22:57] Absolutely right.

[00:22:59] This is just insightful. I know that when we produce this show,

[00:23:03] you push it out. I'd recommend everybody to go back and listen to it again because I know that I'm going to go back and hear new things when I listen to the recording of that.

[00:23:10] Let me ask you this if somebody wants to grow in these skills and they want to really understand how clients and prospects think.

[00:23:17] If you could kind of bring it to three action steps, what would those three action steps be?

[00:23:22] First and I know this sounds like a good goofshade, but it's not take the few minutes you need to prepare for any conversation with prospects with clients with candidates with anyone you're speaking with.

[00:23:36] Those three to five minutes to prepare and today it's so easy to do.

[00:23:41] Look at the tools we have in LinkedIn and other things where you can have an immediate understanding of somebody.

[00:23:46] Absolutely right.

[00:23:47] The second piece I think is more of a mindset.

[00:23:52] I think being able to open a conversation which preparation helps do with confidence, competence and conviction just reads the opportunity for someone to say this is different from what I normally hear on a daily basis.

[00:24:08] This person brings something about belief in our self.

[00:24:12] And then I think the third is having a framework now, unless your brand new and industry I think scripts are fine.

[00:24:18] I like frameworks.

[00:24:19] Well, I want to make sure that I don't sound robotic, but I'm going to follow some steps in the process including you know a compelling connect making sure that I acknowledge what my customer says being prepared with those discovery questions beyond just the obvious am my ability

[00:24:35] to position my value quickly and concisely.

[00:24:39] And by the way, I really can't position my value unless I know first what's important to my client.

[00:24:45] So you see how this becomes very cyclical unless I understand other measured.

[00:24:49] I don't really know what value looks like to them and I'm playing blind nilow.

[00:24:53] Yeah, so those those steps I think in the process were just again preparation the right mindset and a framework to guide the conversation.

[00:25:02] Not manipulate, but just to guide the conversation.

[00:25:05] That's great Rob.

[00:25:06] So this is great.

[00:25:07] I think what you've shared is fantastic.

[00:25:09] I want to have you back on the show Rob.

[00:25:11] You've got a lot of wisdom to share.

[00:25:12] Tell us about your offerings.

[00:25:14] What do you do?

[00:25:15] What do you have that you'd like for people to know about and for all of our listeners, you can connect with Rob will put all his information on the show notes wherever you listen to the podcast.

[00:25:23] Just go there and you'll be able to connect with Rob certainly Rob Mosley managing partner for an organization called next level exchange.

[00:25:31] And our primary focus is in the executive search and the staffing industry.

[00:25:36] However, we work outside of that.

[00:25:38] We have this wonderful business partner called the act of us corporation, try saying that 50 times a day in business development mode.

[00:25:45] It's Latin.

[00:25:46] It means inclined upward but this methodology is brilliant.

[00:25:50] It's been delivered in 88 countries.

[00:25:52] 14 different languages.

[00:25:53] I personally had the privilege of facilitating this curriculum on six continents over the last 30 years.

[00:25:59] And what I know is that where it's delivered lives are impacted.

[00:26:04] It's a brilliant methodology and would love to have people explore that because it's it really is the science of how people want to be treated regarded into the world of client development.

[00:26:14] In what type of industries have you spoken to before Rob?

[00:26:18] Oh gosh, a variety of global concerns.

[00:26:22] Hitachi, Ventera, Shell Energy, KPMG, Federal Express, Google Verizon.

[00:26:29] It really consists of a lot of global brands.

[00:26:35] But I think it's because everyone is looking for that framework that allows them to connect beyond continents, cultures and even countries.

[00:26:47] And what I find fascinating about act is that it really does tie into how human beings want to be treated and regarded in a very sophisticated and yet practical way.

[00:26:59] Absolutely right, Rob.

[00:27:00] This is great. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Like I said, we're going to have you back on the show.

[00:27:04] And thanks again Rob for being here today.

[00:27:06] Thank you Scott. It's always good to be with you sir.

[00:27:10] Thank you for listening to the Rainmaking Podcast.

[00:27:15] For more information about our recruiting services for international law firms, visit our website at attorney searchgroup.com

[00:27:24] To inquire about having Scott speak at your next convention conference sales meeting or executive retreat, visit the rainmakingpodcast.com